theoretical build scenario

[dave gross]

A hypothetical  customer with reasonably deep pockets shows up at your shop door with a stock blank and all the parts required to  complete a rifle...let's say one similar to a Don Getz "barn gun", with a sldiing wood patchbox cover and  butt plate but devoid of carving.  The barrel is a 42  inch in a swamped profile.  This customer expresses a desire to take delivery as soon a possible and price is not a consideration.  Your calendar is clear and your better half has agreed to allow you all the daily shop time you need and will hold all phone calls during the work hours. Your usual stock precarver is fishing in Alaska for two weeks and the others you call are booked up for weeks.
How many weeks will pass before you can call the customer and tell him to show up with his checkbook?  I know that times will vary greatly but what times can some of you "realistically" estimate.  I have kept quite accurate records of my latest  rifle project and am surprised at the hours involved in the process. I guess that time flies when you're having fun, and the hourly monetary return is pretty slim though I see no way to raise it.  The price ceiling for most folks who want a reasonably nice flintlock rifle is quite low, at least in these parts.  Much of my reward comes in the smile when the new owner picks up his rifle for the first time.
If presented with the above conditions I reckon I could deliver in a couple of weeks working 8 hours a day but would want another week just in case. As usual, your mileage may vary.

Dave Gross
Way down east in Maine

[jim m]

I would have to say 5 wks, 3 for most of the work and 2 more wks to fix all my mistakes 

[Stophel]

I once built a "barn gun" in three weeks.  I was "between jobs" at the time, so I had all day every day to work on it, though I did not strain myself doing it.  And I did all the inletting and everything by hand.

 

[jerrywh]

The price ceiling for most folks who want a reasonably nice flintlock rifle is quite low, at least in these parts.  Much of my reward comes in the smile when the new owner picks up his rifle for the first time.

  This is why I don't build regular guns.  My mortgage holder doesn't except smiles for house payments.
 Neither does safeway or albertson's. I soon discovered that I could build a real nice plain gun in about a month working 4 to 6 hours a day and it will sell for $1500. to $2000.  No job benefits and no health insurance.  McDonalds pays better than that and has health insurance. I would rather go fishing or hunting  for nothing than work for nothing.
   You just can't compete with Pedersoli  or Cabellas if your doing this for money.  It's a lot esier to love something when it pays real good.

[Dave B]

When I was at the MNLRA gunsmithing classes I over heard a coupple of guys talking about how one saw Hershel build a gun in the white over a weekend. Now was it a barn gun or not wasnt discussed but that man can crank it out with the best of them. I think if you had your tools set up right you could get one done in two weeks with out a problem not working on Sunday. I my self have gotten a B weight barrel inlet by hand and a butt plate installed, stock profiled in one weekend of demonstration.

[Collector]

I've read your question a couple of times.  Maybe it's my training, but a guy not being available for a couple of weeks shouldn't present as an obstacle, much less a consideration, in these types of custom projects.  From my perspective, the elements of the 'problem,' don't exactly square with the question.

So, I take it, that the 'hypothetical' customers decision, on whether to  commission you or the next guy, is essentially going to be based on your answer, as to how 'quickly' you can meet his demands? Out of my own experience, you can't charge enough money to cover the aggravation you'll endure, with this 'type' of client.  

I could be wrong, of course, but for giggles, tell him one (1) year and I'd bet his rifle building - can't understand why it should take that long - 'expertise' surfaces.

Earl Lanning gave me the best advise:  "Share some of your ideas and develop an understanding, then stay out of the builders way.  In the end, you'll probably get more than you paid for and you'll both have something that you're proud of."

If he really wants you to build the gun, he'll give you the parts for starters.  You'll provide a written scope of work and a price and take a reasonable deposit.   You'll call him as soon as it's complete.  Anything other than that, is called 'just looking.'

Good luck!

[Don Getz]

I think if I had to inlet my own barrels by hand, I  would take up fishing.   The first thing I would do would be to make a
machine to inlet barrels, should take about a week to do it.     Don

[Acer Saccharum]

Buy the closest Tip Curtis 'in the white gun" and take your customer's stock and bbl in in trade.

You might break even.

Acer

[northmn]

Got burnt out doing that sort of thing. While I did not have the time to go full time I did turn out a couple within a couple to four months.  Relatively plain Pennsylvanias, straight barrel, patch box, entry thimble, buttplate no carving or engraving.  Used a table saw and router setup for barrel inletting.  It helped support my hobby, but the hobby no longer was much of a hobby.  I build guns now and enjoy it again, but with no deadlines, nor will I build for another again.  A lot of it is like Jerry said, I could make more at McDonalds.  I have noticed that Jerry and Acer enjoy the artistic aspect of building, which I can understand, more than the basics.  That is another aspect of building.  Building the plain guns is mostly busy work, but can be relaxing on a rainy day.

DP

[Acer Saccharum]

For me, it's gotta be fun. I already have plenty of jobs. I make the guns on my own time, on my own buck. I think if I tried to do this for a living, I'd rapidly come to hate it.

If there is a way you can make this gun, and enjoy it, and break even, and learn something, do it.

Acer

[Roger Fisher]

If I would have tried to build (anything incl dogcoops) for a living I'd be in the poorhouse and the nuthouse long ago.  I only play at it and Barbara will have a $#*! of an estate sale one day....

[rich pierce]

I'd say it depends on what stage you are in your progression as a gunbuilder.  Early on, all paid work is good work. 

Chances to build and get paid for it are sort of like bow wood, or gun blanks, etc.  If you are a bowyer and have a stack of good bow wood, premium osage, straight, wide rings, seasoned 4 years, no knots, as well as some prime black locust, same deal, and some incredible hop hornbeam staves, and a pile of long moose sinew all processed, and somebody offers you a decent ash stave, you pass.  If you can't find a decent bow stave to save yourself, and somebody offers you that same ash stave, you jump on it.  Same might be true for gun blanks.  If there was a shortage of thick blanks and all you could find was 1 and 1/2" wide hard maple, mighty curly, but you make early guns, then a plain jane piece of hard maple 2.5" wide would excite your interest.  Same with building guns.  If customers with deep wallets are lined up and you have a 3 year wait, you can pick and choose what you want to build and do it on your calendar, at your pricing.

If you are early in your career (anybody, not necessarily DaveG, who may be a high end builder, just don't know) and want to build guns and get established you need to be building and getting them out there.  Consider yourself an apprentice early in your career, getting fed and clothed and learning the craft, nothing more.  Go with the best offer you can get.  And as you get better and more well known, your work will start commanding prices, and folks will wait for your work gladly. We could name some builders here on the forum who would be getting $1500-$2000 for well-built plain guns or $1800-$2400 for well decorated guns a few years ago but whose work now commands some serious dinero.

[jerrywh]

Rich.
 Well said. You can't start out at the top. I wouldn't even try to do this for a living to begin with. When I started I had no intention of ever selling a gun.

[Long John]

I build for fun.  I prefer to make my own parts from brass sheet rather than buy pre-made ramrod pipes, end caps, side plates etc.  I prefer to make my own triggers and I like to hand inlet the barrel.  That makes me the odd-ball but it is a hobby with me. 

I generally figure between 250 and 300 hours to make a rifle.  If I had to sell such a rifle for $1500 I would be averaging $5.00 per hour!

I recently agreed to build a rifle for a friend.  I lent him my copies of RCA and told him to find the rifle he wanted.  He is buying the parts and I'll put it together.  But the deal is that its done when its done.  Gunmaking is my hobby, not my profession.  It is a pass-time, not a job.  He knows that it will be better than a year before he will shoot it.

Best Regards,

JMC

[dave gross]

I believe that my question may have been misunderstood.  I was basically interested in the amount of time it might take some of us to build a rifle as described under the constraints I put forth, including having to do all the inletting, barrel included, in your own shop using whatever means you have available.  I do not and could not make anything approaching a living wage slaving away my rifle bench but have been fortunate to build a couple of rifles for "real" money......maybe getting ten bucks an hour for my time......and the owners did smile when they picked up their rifles....though I couldn't swap those smiles for food or fuel.  The whole rifle building thing is a much loved hobby for me as I suspect it is for many on the ALR forums.  I am certain that for the years I have tried to turn out nice rifles I am operating at a net loss...but it's been worth every penny.

Dave Gross
Way down east in Maine

[rich pierce]

I estimate a plain rifle takes about 80 hours from a blank inletting all parts by hand, with a drill press and band saw as the power tools available and all parts purchased and of good quality.  This is if you are in the groove, have been building recently, and don't have to remember how to do this or that and go slowly to make sure you're doing it right.

I made a plain rifle long ago in 80 hours including making 2 sheet iron ramrod pipes and the trigger and sheet iron guard and one-piece sheet iron buttplate.  This was my third rifle that year so I was confident and could move right along step by step.  This is where guys like Don Getz and Mike Brooks can shine, because they build all the time and spend less time  having to remember or go cautiously, because they're in practice.  If castings are rough, or barrel needs re-breeching or etc, time must be added.  Lock would not be well polished or case-hardened, no carving or engraving.  Barrel and lock could be browned in this timeframe, or barrel finished bright and lock roughly polished bright.  Nothing custom on the gun and preferably it's a style you've done before.

If you have to spend time buying parts, shopping around, making this or that, all those things take time.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

For a longrifle, From a plank, with swamped barrel (why use a parallel one), all store bought furniture and hardware, no carving or engraving save my own name on the top flat and the date and serial number on the bottom flat - 3 weeks of eight hour days, probably includes weekends.  Theoretical client's cost for the labour $1800 - he pays for the parts.  Parts will cost him around $800 - $1000.

I treat the build as a hobby.  My spare time is worth much more to me than my work time.  My dad used to say, "You got a nice face, but I couldn't put it in the cash register!"

[Ryan McNabb]

You should take the order and tell him his rifle will be ready in 10 days or it's free.  Now, as his car disappears down the driveway, you'll feel the same sense of urgency that a working tradesman feels, not a hobbyist, and your work will never be the same.  Either you'll find it intoxicating or you'll find something else to do with your spare time.

I'm sorry but the words "Usual stock precarver" are the problem here.  Building rifles is a trade, and it must be built on a tradesman's skill and urgency.  If you can't do it quickly and competently, then practice.  I did this by doing the things I hated until I was numb to them. I once built 14 rear ramrod pipes back to back - one after another.  I hand inlet 7 barrels in two days once.  You do that kind of craziness enough times and you start to realize that stocking up a plain rifle in the white in a long weekend should be the minimum price of entry into the trade.  I'm not trying to hold myself up as some great gumaker - far from it. 

[dave gross]

I want to thank all of you who have taken the time to comment on my theoretical rifle build.  It seems to me that we all have many things in common, not the least of which is the desire to put forth our very best efforts on every build, realizing that there will always be some operating at very high levels of skill.  I always admire the top echelon work when it can be seen in person such as at Dixon's Fair in July.  No need to name names, but I know the top dozen or so makers whose work inspires me.
Gotta be under the knife for some potentially serious whittling and laid up for a few days after.  Thanks, fellas, for all the interesting and educational stuff I find here almost everyday.  Don't think I'll find a wireless connection in the hospital but will check in here first when I am able.

Dave Gross
Way down east in Maine

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Dave, I wish you the very best of luck for your surgery and a speedy recovery.  I know that many of us will be thinking of you, wishing you the best, 'til we hear from you again.

[Mike R]

My first rifle, built from parts and with a stock blank whose only pre-carve/inletting was the barrel channel roughed out, took me 160 hours including a simple patchbox and minor carving--and learning to do it!  It turned out pretty good.  So, if a rank amateur can make one in 3 weeks, I suspect all of you "pros" could do a plain rifle in 2 weeks! 

[George F.]

I wish I could add to "How fast you can build"...  But me and Dave Rase are in a dead heat as to "Who's the slowest".   ...Geo.

[Roger Fisher]

Good luck Dave on their 'table' and the recoup!!

[Kentucky Jeff]

Dave,
   Good luck with the surgery.  Most of the gunmakers I have talked with about this business (notice I didn't say hobby) have told me they can crank out a plain jane rifle in about 2 weeks--maybe ten days.   But almost everyone of the top guns in the business will do something to leverage their time.  An awful lot of the better builders in the trade will send their stock blanks and barrels to someone to inlet the barrel and drill the RR hole.  The $60 or so it takes to have that done is money in the bank to that builder because it leverages his time!   

   After you go to a few workshops like Conner Prairie or Bowling Green you quickly realize that the phrase "working on a gun" doesn't mean the same to all people.  But if you are a tradesman the ONLY thing you can control is your time and use of it.  So having a sense of urgency, intensity and purpose in your motions is something few hobbyists have when it comes to building guns.   Being good and being quick are not exclusive but being new to gun building, quick AND good is something that only comes from repetition.