Double gun help needed .54 cal Horsley rifle

[snapper]

Ok, here you go. 

This is my second session shooting it.  The first session, I am not posting pictures, not sure that it will make any difference or help much, only shot at about 25 yard and 70 yards that session.  I started at 80 grains, went to 90 and dropped it down some.  Results are similar to today's.

Today I shot at 50 yards and 100 yards.  You will see markings next to the bullets.  Y means yards, G means grains, L left barrel, R right barrel.  At the buffalo's foot there are two bullet holes.  One is not marked, I am fairly sure that it is 50 grains, right barrel, 100 yards.  Today I was not shooting for groups at the same yardage and load.  The first session I shot more than one round per barrel with the same load, and I was getting fairly decent consistency.

The right barrel shoots consistently to the left of the target and to the left of the left barrel. 

I went as high as 90 grains of powder and as low as 30 grains.  All 2 F swiss, .535 balls, .015 patches.  All shots were aimed at the center of the red bull.  I did have a fairly decent wind from right to left, that can account for some of the left windage.

I cant believe that at 100 yards with 90 grains the dang things are over 27  inches high.

The sights certainly could be not original.  The leaf sights have a small screw that is tapped into the top rib, holding them in place.  Does look a little crude.

Even if they are not original the rears, it does not matter, the 100 yard sight is about as low as I can get on it anyway, I dont think cutting it down will help me much. 

I tried to shoot a lyman conical.  It was too tight, I was afraid to beat it down the barrel and only get part way with it.  I might of chickened out, but I tried starting a couple only to get them half way in with a lot of effort and pulled with with a pair of pliers.

Ok, thoughts?

thanks for the help.

fleener

[T*O*F]

I cant believe that at 100 yards with 90 grains the dang things are over 27  inches high.

Your barrels are tapered with a stubby post sight.  You need a taller front sight.

[smylee grouch]

Did you actually measure the thickness of those patches and did they seem to be creating a good seal of ball to bore? I also think your front sight is too low.

[snapper]

My patches are .015 precut oxyoke  with .535  balls.  I have used these for years in all of my .54 rifles.  The combo fits nice and tight.  The patches that are shot look typical.

Fleener

[Huntschool]

First thing I would try is a taller front site as T O F suggested.  Then perhaps change the rear express site.

If you are still throwing shots laterally and you like the gun and want it to shoot you might consider having the barrels "re-regulated"  A well regulated gun should print much better then that even at pre intersection.

Just a thought

[mark brier]

In double gun work it is just an issue of velocity and timing, most all of my doubles are of the B.P.E with a few nitro but they are the same basic principle. Regulation is a matter of timing and velocity. As one barrel recoils it moves up and away from the center of the other barrel. As the shots are made on the target it shows you pretty much all you need to know. However cartridge doubles will regulate with a lower velocity than it was originally regulated at. And the quality of regulating was higher with the high name makers generally speaking. When looking down the barrels of a properly regulated set of barrels (looking through the bores, I know this is a muzzleloader but try to explain the idea clearly) the right barrel should be pointing at the bottom left and the left barrel to the bottom right. And when the correct velocity is met it is exactly on target when the bullet exits the muzzle in recoil. So a right barrel consistently shooting left indicates that velocity is to fast and needs slowed down to allow it to be on target when the bullet exits in recoil. Or if it was shooting right velocity needs increased because the bullet is moving slower and exiting higher in the recoil. But overall as I stated before guns will regulate at lower velocities but I believe in your case your charge is still pretty low. Hope this helps
Mark Brier

[mark brier]

I would also play with other powders. Probably going right to Old Enysford, just my opinion for this piece.
Mark Brier

[snapper]

I posted this yesterday before i cleaned the rifle.

I had meant to change out the nipples on this rifle and when cleaning the rifle I was kicking myself for forgetting to do that.  The right nipple has a noticeably larger flash hole than the left.  I am hoping that that might help tighten things up.  Looks like the nipples are platinum lined. 

I will also take some Goex with me next time to try if needed.

Fleener

[mark brier]

Fleener, I will also say that doubles are not bench guns and placement of the rest on a bench also plays a role ( they are picky) in how they shoot. If shooting off a bench they need to be held the same way as shooting offhand. Having the rest or bag or whatever you are shooting off of underneath the forearm is where you need to be. I usually have a gloved hand on the rest holding the gun as if off hand. There is a lot of rhymes and reasons why the British have and use standing rests. Good luck
Mark Brier

[Pukka Bundook]

Good point re. holding Mark.

Two things Fleener,
One is,  It seems the sights need kicking across, as your groups are more or less centre with left, and left with right.
Also, I think you need a ramp front sight to lower your POI. The original sight may have been missing and someone guessed.  (Or used it as a shotgun.)
Some had  a low ramp, and the blades were interchangeable , slotting in from the front, and held with a screw.

Keep at it, you Will get there!

[snapper]

Mark, thanks for the advise.  I will try that. 

Richard, I also always appreciate your comments as well.

I might get out mid day today for a few shots and see what happens.  Sunny day in Iowa and supposed to get up to around freezing, wind looks decent as well.

I will put in new platinum nipples, take along some goex, shoot it from the bench like I hold it off hand and take along some wads to try if needed under the patched balls.

Fleener

[Kynoch]

Great advice above.  As Mark indicates, velocity and timing are everything. If your barrels are crossing (right barrel shooting to the left and Left barrel shooting to the right) and you can't get them to converge with changes in powder charges, you likely need more bullet weight.  Twist may indicate this as well.  I would wait until you find a load that regulates to your liking before I changed the front sight.  Neat rifle! 

[Bob Roller]

I am wondering if 54 caliber hollow base bullets would work
or create a hazard if one moved forward from the recoil of the
first one being fired.The 16 bore Greener* I had regulated easily
at 50 yards with 90 grains of 3fg and  patched.660 balls.It had a mould
that made a 2 piece "Greener Patent" bullet but I never tried it.
I had this gun with me in 1972 along with a semi-military Whitworth
.451 on the visit with Mark's grandfather Tom Dawson in 1972 and
we took it to St.Louis with us on the trip to visit Art Resell.
Keep us posted about this fine double rifle.
*I traded a Holland&Holland breech loader .303 to a doctor for
the Greener that had 10 and 12 gauge shotgun barrels + the
16 bore rifle.The H&H came from Marks'grandfather as well

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Fleener - if I remember correctly, this rifle had a fairly slow twist which would certainly indicate it should regulate more closely than it is, with round balls.

Are you holding the rifle in both hands as you shoot it off the bags, resting the back of the forend-hand on the bag, or are you resting the forend on the bag?

Too - double barreled rifle builders ALL use a standing bench for regulation, right into the 1900's.

Failure to duplicate regulation loads AND holds, can cause severe frustration in getting SxS's to shoot.

[snapper]

Getting closer

50 yards, 80 grains of 2 f swiss.  The bottom left hole as part of the 4 shot group was the first shot, with a little hang fire.  The way bottom right bullet is a fouling shot as is the hole in the red target on the way bottom left.

I did try a shot from both barrels with 60 grains to see what would happen.  No idea on where either ball went.  Same point of aim on the red bull as with the 80 grains of powder.

The left group is from the right barrel.

I am going to be out of town for a week with no internet.

Fleener

[Pukka Bundook]

Very promising  Fleener.
Just a few more grains might do it!  (say 85 -90).

[snapper]

It was 40 and sunny today and I did not have a lot of time to shoot today, but I wanted to try to the new nipples.

my last two shots I dropped the powder to 60 grains.   No idea where either bullet went, really surprised me that neither hit paper.

Fleener

[Pukka Bundook]

The 60 gr loads might have shot Real cross-eyed, Fleener.