Looking for sheath eyedears

[Clark Badgett]

Picked up a nice trade type knife at friendship and desire to make an appropriate 18th century style sheath for it. I want it to be correct for a white man, and not of indian influence. I should state up front I am not very skilled in leather work yet, but I can do the basics.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think it would be pretty hard to make a mistake.  There are quite a number of knives depicted in the three Accoutrement Books, many with sheathes.  Some are fancy, but many are what might have been made by a relatively unskilled outdoorsman.

[Clark Badgett]

So I guess a plain one piece style with a loop is fairly correct.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Sure - stitched or harness rivets or both - is not wrong.  Not fancy, but correct.

[JCKelly]

A century late for what you want, but I have my own question. How does one make a sheath with the seam along the side, rather than sewn around the edges as are all modern sheaths? My example of the seam I'm talking about is the sheath of this Sheffield Bowie knife. There is a belt loop sewn to the other side, mountings are German Silver (the old stuff, not the whiter modern Nickel Silver of somewhat different chemistry).

[Clark Badgett]

Ok this is the way it was explained to me over a phone conversatin many years ago. You will need something to use as an "anvil" that is shaped like the blade to set the rivets that hold on the metal trim. But first you need to cut out the leather to the exact size where the edges butt up against each other. Crease or carve out a little line for the thread to lay in and sew the butted edges together like you would if the edges were laying against each other, except the thread will not be visable on the inside. As with everything I am sure there are other way to get similar results.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I make a pattern out of cereal box cardboard, and allow some extra for the additional thickness of the sheath leather.  Then I made a wooden blade that is the same shape and size as the steel one, with extra where the handle would be to give something to work with.  I shave the edges to about half their thickness back about a quarter inch.  I cut a shallow groove parallel to the edges for the stitching to lie in, and sew up the case edge to edge, just as if the seam were to run along the outside edge rather than down the centre.  Then I thoroughly wet the leather and form it so the seam is down the centre, then insert the wooden blade to stretch into the exact shape of the steel blade.  Let it dry with the wooden blade in the leather.  then pull it out and you're on your way.  You can shave down the extra leather beyond the sewn seam, and burnish it round, while it's wet.  Lots of fun.

[Artificer]

When you want to sew the seam on the side of a leather scabbard for a knife, bayonet or sword; there were two main authentic ways dating back to the late 17th century throughout the 18th and 19th century.  For both of them a wood form was usually made to replicate the blade as already mentioned.   Nowadays we can put a thick layer of gun grease on the blade, wrap it in Saran Wrap.  Then add either some slivers of wood or leather around the blade and wrap masking tape around that to ensure the scabbard will fit correctly.  Then you wrap masking tape aound that to hold everything in place.  I usally do it the latter way as I don't make enough of these types of scabbards to make it worthwhile to make wood forms.  

One way to do it is called a "standing butt seam."  You wet the leather and wrap it around the form.  Pinch the ends in some kind of holder or vice very close to the form and down the center of the form on what will be the back side of the sheath.  The ends of the leather come together and go upwards from where they were pinched together.  While the leather is wet, you sew the seams together with a standard double stitch as close to the body of the form as possible.  You re-wet the leather as needed as you go along with a sponge.  Then you cut the leather above the seams very close to the seams and burnish them down while the leather is still moist.

You wind up with a seam that looks something like the one on this bayonet scabbard, though they didn't burnish the leather down  

http://www.thequartermastergeneral.com/?category=leather_goods&morepics=true&id=811

I don't mean to be a snob, but this type of seam often was not done well and was cheaper and easier to make. It was not considered "the best work" in the 18th century.  This type of seam is very uncommon on sword scabbards from the mid 18th century to the Indian Wars period.  

What was considered the "best work" was to wrap the leather around the form with both ends of the leather overlapping the center of the blade.  Then cut through both pieces of the leather. at the same time, down the center of the back side of the sheath.  That gives you a near perfect mating of the leather ends so they are flat on the blade when you use tunnel stitches to sew the flat ends of the leather together.  You have to use a curved awl to make tunnel stitches so the ends of the leather will lay flat and end to end.   Here are some examples of what that kind of seam looks like:

Cutlas scabbard:  http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/185-12c.JPEG

Bayonet scabbard:  http://www.horsesoldier.com/catalog/30-1491b.JPEG

Though these examples are from the 19th century, it was done the same way in the 18th century.  

We had quite a good discussion on the British Blades forum about how I found out how to make this stitch from the Cordwainer at Colonial Williamsburg and how to actually do it.  You have to go to the second page in the link for the information.  The first page deals a lot with how original French and Indian War bayonet frogs were made.  (I'm known as U.S. Marine on that forum)

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79432

For anyone who wishes to do handsewing of leather work, there is absolutely one book that is worth many times what you will pay for it.  The book is: The Art of Handsewing Leather, by Al Stohlman.  It is available from Tandy Leather and on Ebay as well as other places.   One caution though for doing this kind of sewing on scabbards when you look at the pictures in the thread from Al's book.  You don't want to make a stitching groove along the ends of the leather as that isn't authentic.

If you have other questions, please ask.

[Chuck Burrows]

To add to what Artificer/USM posted - that is one method and was used into the 19th Century, but sheaths built for Bowies such as one posted above were made by far using a different method.
The vast majority of Sheffield Bowie sheath were made with a paste board/papier mache liner which was molded around to fit the blade perfectly - once dry it was usually varnished (earlier knives such as Scots Dirks often had a wooden liner as did early sword sheaths). A thin leather cover was then glued on over the liner. The cover was then most often sewn together with a standing center seam like teh one shown above rather than a butt seam. Both methods require curved needles and awls (I mentioned how to make them in the Brit Blades link) or hog bristle needles -  a good hand wax - a mix of beeswax and pitch - such as used by cordwainers also helps by locking the threads when pulled tight.
IMO when done right both types of seams are equally nice, although the butt seam doesn't usually leave a ridge like the standing seam, but that ridge can be minimized quite a bit by shaving off any excess leather above the threads and then pressing the ridge down while damp. When done properly the thread is better protected than with a butt seam . The butt seam is included in the Al Stohlman book - he shows with illustrations how to make a dice cup if I remember right using the method.
An even more "elegant" method used was the hidden seam - you butt the edges together or make a scarf joint and then slit both sides of the leather at a 45° angle but only part way through about 1/4-5/16" or so back from the center, angling down and in towards the center. You then carefully spread the slits open, sew using the tunnel stitch (best way is with hog bristle "needles" and fine thread, but small gauge curved harness needles and fine thread will work - I like silk thread for this fine work and #6 or #7 harness needles depending on the size of the project), then apply a thin layer of glue in the slits and glue them back down. Once dry add a decorative, pressed in line along where the edge of the slits are and they will virtually disappear.  Al Stohlman shows how to do this one as well.
BTW - A common decoration method used on Sheffield Bowie sheaths was the same as used by book binders, including silver and gold leaf.
For one of the best references/high quality photo books on Bowies and their sheaths which I can highly recommend is Norm Flayderman's "The Bowie Knife, Sheathing a Legend". For about $80.00 it is 520 pages of some of the best info available and best of all it's chock full of color photos......

[Artificer]

Chuck,
Glad you mentioned the hidden seam.  That is the type of seam the Cordwiners used at Colonial Williamsburg to sew the tops of shoes to the sole. 

Clark,
Don't know how much longer this picture will last because the auction has ended, but here's an original scabbard and you may get an idea of what are talking about from it.  I'm not sure whether it is Revolutionary period as it looks like a Civil War period cutlass scabbard, but it is still a neat bunch of photo's.

http://listityourselfauctions.com/detail.asp?id=19216&pic=2#img

[Artificer]

Chuck,

You got me to thinking about the seams on original scabbards I've owned or seen over the years. 

I used to collect original cutlasses and infantry swords back in the early 80's before they went out of sight. 

The earliest pieces I had were a pair of French Cutlasses that I documented as to around 1760 or 63, but I can't remember exactly.  I got them way too cheap from a dealer who normally sold Civil War stuff, but didn't know 18th century stuff.  One had the original scabbard and it was sewn flat end to flat end.  I had two late 18th century British cutlasses and one of them had the original scabbard and it was sewn flat to flat.  I've owned three 1812 period hangers, one officers and two enlisted swords and they all had scabbards and were sewn flat to flat.

 I don't recall how the scabbard was sewn on the French Model 1833 cutlass I had.  I had one original M 1859 British Cutlass bayonet and that might have been a standing butt seam.  I've seen many croaker sack full of original Enflield Model 1856 sword bayonets and many original scabbards.  I found one almost mint scabbard on a bayonet that wasn't quite that good (funny that as usually the bayonets are in better shape than the scabbards) in a pawn shop in Oceanside.  I got that super cheap s the owner thought it was later 19th century French bayonet.  I don't have it anymore, but I think that also may have been a standing butt seam.

I have owned three original Model 1850 Infantry Officer's swords and they seem to have been a mix of both types of seams on those scabbards, depending on how fancy they were. 

The Yorktown Victory Center has one original "standard pattern" original British issue Enlisted Man's, Scottish basket Hilt Backsword that was issued in the early years of the American Revolution.  These were the cheaper iron basket hilt swords.  It has the original scabbard and is displayed so you can see both sides of the scabbard.  I am not sure how that was sewn, but will look carefully at it the next time I'm down there.

I have seen some nicer original 18th century British and American Officers sword scabbards and most of them were sewn flat to flat.

Colonial Williamsburg sews their reproductin bayonet and sword scabbards for hangers or infantry swords as flat to flat on the repro's they make.  I'll check with them the next time I'm down there as to their documentaton on it. 

The example you showed on the British Blades forum of a highly decorated knife and scabbard from the late 1700's had the standing seam as you mentioned and showed.

Could it be that the standing butt seam was more common only on more expensive made scabbards in the 18th century and then was much more common in the 1830's or 40's on more utilitarian swords and bayonets?  This while the flat to flat sewn seams were more common on the more utilitarian swords and byonet scabbards of the 18th and very early 19th century scabbards?   This has really piqued my interest and I'm going to do more research on this. 

[Artificer]

My apology if I'm hijacking the thread, but my earlier post got me to thinking about the way 18th century shoes were sewn.

Colonial Williamsburg used the hidden seams for years so the thread did not go through the bottom sole and would not wear out as quickly from wear on the ground or rot.

However in the early 1980's, when I went to the Cobbler's shop at Historic Old Salem in Winston-Salem, NC they sewed the soles on differently.  They actually sewed the leather of the tops through the bottom of the soles.  I asked them why they did that as it exposed the thread to wear and they did it differently at Colonial Williamsburg.  They told me the style shoe they made was more of a "common man's shoe" in the 18th century and it was also from the Moravian influence.  Their style shoe could more easily be made by the common person and their shoes didn't require a Cordwainer's skill and experience to make them.  They also noted Williamsbug was "High Society" in the mid to late 18th century while Salem was more rural small town.