Plan/blueprint for Jacob Dickert

[Daryl Pelfrey]

I cant seem to find a blueprint for this rifle. All  i really want to know is barrel pin locations. Can anyone help or have a pplan/ blueprint i could buy.

[smallpatch]

You don't need a set of drawings for pin locations.  Determine your own.
Do you have any educational materials.
I'd suggest Recreating the American Longrifle, or similar.  These barrel pins, as well as pipe locations and sights are determined by barrel length, forestock length, etc.
You would do well to buy one or several books on building that answer design questions before you get too far along.
Please don't think I'm trying to be mean.  It's part of the process.

[WKevinD]

If you don't want to get any books at least read/ study Mike Brooks tutorial

Kevin

[TommyG]

I find that using reliable research material is very helpful in recreating builders and schools.  I used RCA vol. 1 for my Dickert build this past year.  Schumway has several of Dickert's guns in Vol.1.  I simply scale the rifle in the photo by using one of his given dimensions -
 i.e. - barrel length, LOP, etc..  Then lay out & proportion the gun from there.  Of course they are photos and can be distorted somewhat, but usually it seems to give you what you need to get the architecture pretty close.  Things like barrel pins, lock positioning, trigger placement, etc, will be determined by the components you are using, assuming they are correct or close to correct for the build.  As far as barrel pin locations - I would recommend laying out your thimble entry location, then the upper thimble locations first, then locate your pin locations so they do not interfere with the thimble locations

[M. E. Pering]

Daryl Pelfrey... I understand your desire for a BP, or for that matter, a print of any kind.  Before I built my first rifle over 20 years ago, I had the same desire to come as close as possible to the originals.  I now also build more precise pieces of machinery, that do require blue prints.  But in 18th century gun building, it was more of an art than a science when it came to building a gun.  Sure, some things needed some precision, like making a good lock, or positioning of certain gun furniture.  Other than that, the ancient builders had little consistency.

The maker I have probably studies the most is George Shroyer (Scherer, Schoyrer, Sherer) of York county, PA.  I have at least 15-20 photos of his stock profiles, and none of them are exactly the same.  All are different from one another, yet they show commonality.  These makers were not trying to turn out carbon-copies, nor were they trying to turn out works of art for art's sake.  They were trying, and succeeding, at turning out guns that the public would pay money for.  That is all.  Today, the modern mind seems to value one-of-a-kind pieces with an undeserved reverence.  Back then, it was just the way things were.  How they would have loved interchangeable parts back then... It would have been a hard thing for the colonial mind to grasp, lol.

It is great to have the opportunity to have an old original, and make a bench copy, but most prints won't bring you the exactness which that experience can.  Keep in mind, the only purpose for the barrel pins is to hold the stock tight to the barrel.  I use 1/16" pins myself, and they are barely noticeable.  The advice here to get books and study the pictures I whole-heartedly endorse, since that is all I have at my disposal to study.  The two RCA volumes are indispensable to me.  Also, a couple good books on building these guns will give you a wealth of knowledge, but practice of course, will always be your best teacher.  Locate you pins where they look right to you when you compare them to original picture.  I can't tell you how many times I have been advised that ramrod pipes are all equidistant from one another on original guns... They are not.

Matt

[Nordnecker]

Put your underlugs where the RR pipes aren't.

[rich pierce]

As above go find Mike Brooks’ tutorial on building a longrifle.  Go study later Dickert rifles and collect digital pictures.

For making a blueprint: By studying originals it’s not that hard to make a blueprint once you have the parts. Are you building from a blank? If not, a blueprint isn’t that much help as you are stuck with what the precarved stock gives you.  Let’s say you are starting with a blank.  Will the barrel be inlet and the ramrod hole drilled?

Lay the barrel on a long sheet of paper.  Trace it.  Or just draw a rectangle 13/16” deep and as long as the barrel is.  Note where the end of the breechplug is inside the barrel.  Mark that on the barrel drawing.  You can measure where that is using a ramrod.  Stick the ramrod in till it can’t go no further and mark the depth with a pencil.

Barrel, ramrod / hole, ramrod, and forearm belly: Let’s assume you intend to build from a blank without the barrel inlet and ramrod hole drilled: Mark out 3/16” of thickness of wood below the barrel and above the ramrod hole on the paper.  Use a highlighter or crayon so you know what it is. Now draw the thickness of the ramrod, whether 5/16” or  3/8”.  Highlight that another color and pencil in “ramrod” every foot or so on the drawing.  Later on after studying originals we will lay out nosecap, underlugs, and thimbles and the length of the forearm.

Get your vent liner out and trace the lockplate onto heavy paper.  Assuming you’re using a vent liner, make another mark on your blueprint how far in front of the breechplug you want the touchhole to be.  Leave a smidgeon between the breechplug face and the back edge of the liner.  Draw a vertical line where the vent hole will be.

Now go study several late Dickert rifles because a 13/16” barrel will not work well with a 2” buttplate but it could be done I am sure.  Once you have that in hand and are committed to making a blueprint, we can go through the next steps.

[Mike Brooks]

I should have included laying out a rifle in that tutorial. It seems everybody wants to go off all willey nilly these days with out proper planning or assume you can buy a "one size fits all blue print" of some sort. Well, you can't and anything that's out there for sale isn't going to be applicable to the pile of parts you have decided to build from. SO you have to draw out full size plans using all your parts as reference to make all of this work.
 I DO THIS FOR EVERY GUN I MAKE. Sometimes it takes a 1/2 a day before I get the stock architecture I want. Sometimes it only takes an hour, but if I didn't do it I don't know how I would build the gun I was after.

 For barrel pins. If you're doing something historic and small minutia really bothers you you need to look at least at pics of originals to see if that old builder had any quirks as to where he put his pins. If not I put the first one 4" behind the muzzle then divide the rest of the space equally, they usually end up somewhere between 9" and 11" apart depending on barrel length. Your pipes are going to make a difference as well, but if you look closely at old guns they sometimes moved pipe forward or back to make everything work...I do that myself and nobody even notices.

[Dphariss]

If you have a scanner/copier copy the rifle's photo keep increasing the copy size until the lock is the right size. You can scale the lock off the reported barrel or overall length in the original photo. Scan/copy the photo with some over lap so they can be fitted together. You will need 2-3 different copies tape together to get the length of pull etc  and make sure you don't distort things.  Tape the copies together and you have a stock pattern  from in front of the lock to the buttplate. Then just put the lock and trigger in the right places. Remembering as you do that the Dickert I like has a 12" pull and needs to be "stretched". Rod pipe positions and other features can be scaled from the original photo. Beware since its possible to distort things when stretching the buttstock. More to it than just extending lines. Keep the butt plate height the same for example.  If you have an experienced maker in your area consult him he should be willing to help.
Oregon, Washington and Montana, for example, all have Historical Gunmaker's Guilds and there may be others around the country.


Dan

[Dphariss]

We have a guild member that draws things out in detail on paper muzzle to butt. Does wonderful work. Me? I draw it out to just longer than the entry pipe in most cases and usually on the blank not on paper. Once the barrel channel matches the drawing at the breech to locate the lock the rest can be cut out. I cut to the layout lines and don't add a bunch of wood. Usually the pencil/marker lines add a little to the stock anyway. Extra wood would have to be removed before inletting triggers and such anyway. Lock panels can be left just a little high, 1/32 maybe but again the extra will have to be removed. Only enough is needed to clean the lines made by the saw teeth. If the barrel is swamped use the swamp to guide the lock panel flare if the original rifle had this feature.

Dan

[sqrldog]

Daryl, Muzzleloader Builders Supply shows a Dickert plan drawn from an original Dickert rifle. The late Houston Harrison drew the plan using an original rifle. The plan will not give you everything you need particularly if your lock, barrel and hardware are not the same. It will,however, give you good start on designing your rifle. Tim

[Mark Elliott]

Like Mike,  I do a plan for each rifle, but I draw it on the stock blank.   I plane the top and lock side of the blank square then layout all the parts that I have.   I make sure I make all the parts/mounts ready to inlet before I start the stocking.   Then, when I do the final layout, they are all ready to go together.   I have done a trial layout while I make the mounts, but the final layout is done once all the parts are ready to go.   I draw the lock side and top of the rifle with all the components, pin and screw positions.   When I slab off the stock after the barrel and ramrod are in,  I keep the slab off the lock side for the plan drawn on it.     

As to pins,   I generally put the front pin a inch or so behind the nose piece; apparently a little further forward than Mike.   Then it is just a question of where the pin nearest the breech goes?   On PA guns, the first pin is probably going to be somewhere in the middle of the lower forearm.   You need to look  at pictures of the original rifles to see where to put the first pin.   VA and E TN guns often have the first pin in front of the rear thimble.    Once you have the front and rear pins positioned, you layout the rest of the pins roughly equally working around the thimbles.   Whether you have three or four pins depends on how long the barrel is and where the first pin is.   I never have more than three pins on VA and E TN guns.  The original builders didn't seem to be real concerned about putting barrel pins/barrel tenons or thimbles  exactly equally spaced.   Just get them so that they look close to equally spaced.    I hope this helps.
   

[Dphariss]

Like Mike,  I do a plan for each rifle, but I draw it on the stock blank.   I plane the top and lock side of the blank square then layout all the parts that I have.   I make sure I make all the parts/mounts ready to inlet before I start the stocking.   Then, when I do the final layout, they are all ready to go together.   I have done a trial layout while I make the mounts, but the final layout is done once all the parts are ready to go.   I draw the lock side and top of the rifle with all the components, pin and screw positions.   When I slab off the stock after the barrel and ramrod are in,  I keep the slab off the lock side for the plan drawn on it.     

As to pins,   I generally put the front pin a inch or so behind the nose piece; apparently a little further forward than Mike.   Then it is just a question of where the pin nearest the breech goes?   On PA guns, the first pin is probably going to be somewhere in the middle of the lower forearm.   You need to look  at pictures of the original rifles to see where to put the first pin.   VA and E TN guns often have the first pin in front of the rear thimble.    Once you have the front and rear pins positioned, you layout the rest of the pins roughly equally working around the thimbles.   Whether you have three or four pins depends on how long the barrel is and where the first pin is.   I never have more than three pins on VA and E TN guns.  The original builders didn't seem to be real concerned about putting barrel pins/barrel tenons or thimbles  exactly equally spaced.   Just get them so that they look close to equally spaced.    I hope this helps.
   

Forgetting to draw something when one thinks of it can cause issues too. But of course "I" never make such mistakes. I just heard about, like yesterday, in my shop, while working on some carving...... 
Dan

[Jim Chambers]

In a discussion with Wallace Gusler last year about this subject Wallace believes the last thing 18th century makers did was to install the underlugs and pin the barrel.  It would definitely be easier to charcoal blue a barrel without the underlugs already in place.  He said in measuring hundreds of rifles for pin placement there is absolutely no consistency.  The old guys simply put the underlugs where they would not interfere with the ramrod pipes, and, otherwise, wherever they felt like putting them.

[Daryl Pelfrey]

Thanks everyone. Im just putting them where i think works best. Mr. Chambers,, prayers for you and your family.
I hope everyone has a healthy 2019. God bless