Author Topic: southern mountain rifle details  (Read 15036 times)

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2016, 08:36:06 PM »
 I have target rifles that are not ML's that go from 9 to 15 1/2 lbs that are just about right. Of course all of the weight isn't four foot out in front of my hold either.... ;) I don't hold a light gun that well for target shooting, but for hunting it's OK.
 Many of the old Appalachia guns I have handled were quite heavy, I don't think I could shoot them off hand very well. I have handled others even with four foot barrels that were quite handy.
And BTW, I really don't know anything, I fake it most of the time. :P
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline PPatch

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2016, 11:01:37 PM »
Check out Jim Parker's website for a close look at a couple of original Bean rifles;

http://www.calvarylongrifles.com/index.php

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2018, 03:28:56 AM »
I know this is an old thread, but I found it while researching a related topic and thought I might throw in a couple of comments.

First of all, regarding that 13/16" barrel, I would not even consider using a vent liner.  Just drill the hole.  I have four flintlock smoothbores without vent liners that shoot just fine.  I had one flintlock rifle (sold earlier this year) that had a 7/8" barrel in .50 caliber.  Despite the fact that I specifically requested no vent liner, the builder (a very well known and generally respected one... who will remain nameless...) installed a White Lightnin' vent liner anyway, assuring me I "would not be happy without it."  The liner did not make ignition any faster than the smoothbores mentioned above.  However, it protruded into the bore and created fouling trap.  Accumulated fouling (i.e. carbon) can potentially hold a spark, like the charcloth in your tinderbox, increasing the risk for an accidental discharge or "cook off" during loading.  The vent protruding into the bore also prevented getting a jag to the breech face, which complicated cleaning.  Furthermore, I had some concern regarding the number of threads in that thin barrel wall holding the liner in place.  These vent liners, coned from the inside, undoubtedly have some value for rifles with thick walls at the breech, but for thinner barrels, it is my opinion that they are unnecessary and may potentially be a safety hazard.

Anyway...

My dad had a respectable gun collection when I was growing up, including four Tennessee rifles.  These are still in the family, although I am not actually in possession of them.  I was able to convince Dad that I was deeply interested in muzzleloaders and especially southern rifles, and that I was responsible enough to not damage them, even in my teens, and he allowed me to take them apart and examine them in detail.  This would have been in the late sixties.  I made notes but these have subsequently disappeared.  However, based on my admittedly faulty memory, I will submit the following:

One rifle was stamped "J.J. Pryor."  The others had no maker's mark that I recall, although one had a silver plate let in the top flat of the barrel with the name "Grimesly" engraved in script.  It is my understanding this would more likely be the name of the owner than the builder.  All four were percussion, and it is my opinion that they were authentic mountain rifles from the late nineteenth or possibly early twentieth century.  I was not savvy enough at the time to determine if any of the locks had been converted from flint, but I don't think so.  However, it is important to note that our pioneer forebears were thrifty people.  Old locks would be saved and refurbished.  A late 19th century rifle might be fitted with an old flint lock, converted to percussion.  This does not mean the rifle was originally a flintlock.  This should be taken into consideration by anyone thinking about reconverting an old rifle back to flint.

Two of the four rifles were stocked in curly maple, and two in walnut.  The Pryor rifle was in walnut, the Grimesly in fantastically striped maple.  The Pryor rifle was a fullstock, while other three had been cut back to half-stocks.  On these, you could see where the dovetails for barrel tenons had been hammered flat, except for the dovetail nearest the muzzle.  On all three, this held a ramrod pipe, made of heavy sheet iron folded into an "omega" shape, with the base filed to fit the dovetail.  All four rifles had poured nosecaps with cutouts for decoration, if I remember correctly.

Two of the rifles had hand-forged barrels.  Interestingly, the top three and side flats on these were smoothly finished, while the lower three flats, which would have been hidden by a full-stocked fore-end, still bore hammer marks.  This was likely a time-saving strategy employed by the gunsmiths.  I recall that the full-length hand forged barrel was slightly swamped.  The hand-forged barrel on the Grimesly rifle was tapered, but I am quite sure it had been shortened, cut off at the "waist" of the swamped barrel.  The three full-length barrels were all in the neighborhood of 44".  Sorry I don't have measurements, but I can assure you all were pretty heavy.  It would have been possible for a strong man to shoot any of them offhand, but believe the old-timers would avail themselves of any convenient rest when possible.  Ruxton frequently described the western mountain men propping their rifle on their wiping sticks in the absence of natural rests.  Two of the rifles were small caliber, maybe .31 to .36, but I don't remember precisely.  The Pryor rifle was about .44 caliber.  It was still shootable, and I did shoot it.  The Grimesly rifle was about .53 caliber.  It was marginally shootable, but as the Lord watches over fools, I shot it too, and lived to tell about it.  All barrels had seven grooves.

The Grimesly rifle had a classic "lollipop" tang, extending all the way to the comb.  The other three tangs were shorter, and at least one had been forged to taper down to a point.  I don't remember about the others.  I'm sure all were fastened with wood screws... None were through-bolted to the trigger plate, if I remember correctly.

All four rifles were iron mounted.  All four had buttplates.  One was missing the lock, triggers, and trigger guard, but I found a hand-forged triggerguard in a box of my Dad's assorted parts.  The screw holes lined up, so I put it on.  All triggerguards were screwed on... none were pinned.  All of these rifles had double set triggers (you could tell by the mortise in the rifle with missing triggers that they had originally been double-set).  The intact triggers were all single-phase, and none of the locks had a half-cock.  I believe this was probably standard practice, back in the day, as I have seen this on other old rifles, as well.  In any event, the triggers had to be set before you could cock the rifle, and the hammer could only be full-cocked or fully down.

The Grimesly rifle had a "banana" patchbox.  None of the others had any sort of grease-hole or patchbox.  I don't recall a cheekrest on the Pryor rifle, but I believe the others had straight, "Tennessee" cheekrests.

In his book, The Plains Rifle, Hanson mentioned an "eastern bear rifle," and he postulated that the old Tennessee rifle was foundation stock for the later "plains rifle."  I think our old Grimesly rifle is a clear example of the transition... Larger caliber, shorter barrel, and cut to half stock, but of an obvious "Tennessee" pedigree.  This was a very fine rifle, in its day.

Regarding flintlocks, I had it in my mind back in the seventies that I would build a southern flintlock rifle.  Like many of my schemes, this one never came to fruition.  However, I did order detailed "blueprint" drawings of a flintlock Southern Mountain Rifle from an advertiser in Muzzle Blasts.  They were based on a rifle in the Neumann collection, and I believe the actual rifle was pictured in one of Mr. Neumann's books.  These drawings were unfortunately lost in a move, but I studied them enough back then that I still recall a few details.  While the drawings were excellent, the rifle they depicted was not what I expected.   Rather than a long, slim, flintlock version of the Tennessee rifles with which I was familiar, this one had a shorter, approximately 39" barrel.  I recall the breech was square (not octagonal), and I believe it transitioned somehow to round.  It had a big bore, over .60 caliber, and I believe the artist said the rifling was still intact. This rifle had an enormous, round faced English lock.  The artist recommended the Pedersoli Lott lock for those wishing to recreate the rifle, as this was the only similar new lock then available.  The rifle had a single trigger.  The guard had a simple bow with no grip rail and had apparently been salvaged, along with the ramrod pipes, from a military musket.  There was no buttplate.  The curving cheekpiece may be best described as a "crescent." Take a look at the cheekpiece on Jim chambers' "Little Feller's Rifle" to get an idea.  I wish I could find those drawings...

If you're still with me, thanks for reading.  My memory is not entirely reliable, but to the best of my recollection all of the above is accurate.  I hope some may find it interesting.


Best regards,

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline mountainman70

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2018, 05:09:18 AM »
Makes me wonder what happened to the Op. Hope he is ok. Dave 8) 8)

Offline sqrldog

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2018, 05:38:50 AM »
Some of the rifles classed as smr's had heavy barrels iij n particularly those used for over the log matches. All were not heavy barreled rifles. My copy of Dave Byrd's first book is loaned out (bad thing to do I know) but if memory serves me right there's a Bean rifle in there with a 13/16" breech and other rifles with similar breech measurements. The Zachariah Luster rifle drawn by the late Houston Harrison had a breech of about 3/4" . So all SMR rifles were not heavy barreled. Tim

Offline Kevin

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2018, 06:03:21 AM »
However, I did order detailed "blueprint" drawings of a flintlock Southern Mountain Rifle from an advertiser in Muzzle Blasts.  They were based on a rifle in the Neumann collection, and I believe the actual rifle was pictured in one of Mr. Neumann's books.  These drawings were unfortunately lost in a move, but I studied them enough back then that I still recall a few details.  While the drawings were excellent, the rifle they depicted was not what I expected.   Rather than a long, slim, flintlock version of the Tennessee rifles with which I was familiar, this one had a shorter, approximately 39" barrel.  I recall the breech was square (not octagonal), and I believe it transitioned somehow to round.  It had a big bore, over .60 caliber, and I believe the artist said the rifling was still intact. This rifle had an enormous, round faced English lock. 


Bob,  I immediately recognized the rifle as described.  Brief notes about it (item "R.7 American "Mountain" Rifle") and three small photos can be found in "The History of Weapons of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann.  Always have thought it was a neat rifle.  I didn't realize some had done a set of drawings of it.

Kevin


Offline alacran

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2018, 03:20:42 PM »
As far as weight of rifles goes I have one word that sums it all up. "Horses"
Most  of us can't afford them so hardly any of us use them.  I heard an old saying I am going to paraphrase . "A Tennessee man will not walk to his outhouse, He rides his horse"
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline frogwalking

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2018, 07:11:39 PM »
I have probably made as many guns in my lifetime as some of the people in this forum  made last year.  In the past few years I have made a couple of Tennessee mountain rifles and installed 2 through bolts from the tang through the trigger plate, and two lock bolts also.  I have seen a rifle made by Hershel House like this, and that is good enough reason to do it myself.  In at least one of these I used 6-32 bolts for both the rear most tang bolt and the front lock bolt, the latter due to the exceedingly thin web between barrel channel and ramrod hole, and the small size of the "lollypop" portion of the tang.  (I was a structural/civil engineer for 35 years and the added strength and durability of the thru bolts vs wood screws is intuitive for me.)  ….just my .02 worth.

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Quality, schedule, price; Pick any two.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2018, 08:07:06 PM »
You need to buy some books on the subject and go to some gun shows. "Southern Mountain guns" covers such a great area there is no wrong or right answer to any of your questions. Guns made in specific areas had peculiar traits not seen in other areas. There were "Schools" like in PA. and elsewhere.
There are some wonderful books available now that weren't available 20 years ago.

I started using the very broad term  "Southern Mountain/SMR"  as a "catchall" for guns that were mostly TN but lacking in two or more areas that I consider fundamental to a "TN-school" gun.  Recognizing of course that "TN" is a broad category itself.

Well, not that I use the term a lot, but that when I hear or read it that's what my mind springs to: a gun that's nearly, but not quite a TN-type build-typically from a kit or a maker's compilation of "extra parts".  They can be great, or not-just like anything else.

Best of luck and learning with yours.  (whoops found out the thread is 2 years old, well--I still use the term as described).
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 08:14:59 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Robby

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2019, 12:31:34 AM »
It was interesting Notchy!!!! Thank you.
Robby
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WyomingWhitetail

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Re: southern mountain rifle details
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2019, 07:08:17 AM »
Haven't checked in one this forum for a while, seems like i missed a good amount of info on this thread. Thanks everyone for the information.