Author Topic: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles  (Read 4854 times)

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« on: February 06, 2019, 04:00:28 AM »
Greetings!
Second time poster. Lurked for a long time. Hope to purchase a Hawken squirrel rifle in the not too distant future.
I've got several questions about the breeching for a Hawken squirrel rifle.
First question is did the Hawken brothers always use a percussion patent breech on their squirrel rifles?
Second question is did they ever use a drum and nipple configuration?
I have been looking at breeching for a 7/8" barrel, and there does not appear to be very many Hawken breech plugs on the market to fit a 7/8" breech.
The only breechplug that I have been able to find online in 7/8" is a Pete Allen casting that The Gun Works M- L Emporium sells; Part # 266-58-18. It is a flint, slant breechplug with 5/8"-18 × 0.500" long threads. The diameter of the powder chamber is approximately 0.250". The measurements above may not be exact as the lady in Oregon that answered the phone was a little unsure in expressing her measurements. I am guessing that she was using a ruler to measure, as first she went and fetched the part, and then she left to get whatever she used to measure with.
My third question is would the above breechplug be appropriate to use with a drum and nipple on a Hawken squirrel rifle?
Thanks for any and all responses!
I would also like to heartfully thank all the members on this forum for being so willing to dispense answers to people's questions.
I would hazard a guess that there is well over 2000 years worth of experience in muzzleloading contained in the members of ALR.
Thanks again, and everybody that reads this please have a blessed day!
                                      R.J.Bruce




Offline Roger B

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2019, 04:41:35 AM »
Contact Don Stith at St. Louis Plains Rifle Company.  I have one his squirrel rifle kits and they are as good as it gets.
Roger B.
Never underestimate the sheer destructive power of a minimally skilled, but highly motivated man with tools.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 06:02:30 AM »
RJ,

James Gordon's book on Great Gun for the Early West has pictures of five Hawken small caliber sporting rifles.  All have a percussion patent breech.  Four are not hooked, though.  The breech and tang are one piece.  The fifth appears to have the breech bolster brazed on the barrel.

An appropriate fixed or one-piece patent breech for a Hawken squirrel rifle used to be available, but it was likely cast by Pete Allen's foundry which isn't currently operating.

The S. Hawken rifle in the Smithsonian is a flint converted to percussion with a drum and nipple.  The conversion probably wasn't done by Sam Hawken, though.

Your best option:  L&R makes a Hawken hooked breech plug for a 15/16" barrel with a 5/8-18 thread.  Once you fit it to your 7/8" barrel, it shouldn't be too much trouble to file off 1/32" from each flat of the patent breech to match the barrel flats.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 04:58:29 PM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 06:18:26 AM »
As a follow-up, I noticed on Log Cabin's website that they sell an L&R pistol fixed breech & tang that may suit your needs.  It fits a 7/8" barrel, this plug has 5/8-18 threads and a 2" long tang. Snail is drilled and tapped for a .250x28 nipple.



http://www.logcabinshop.com/catalog.php?path=183_165_36&product_id=84815
Phil Meek

Offline rsells

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 07:21:05 AM »
I had been looking for a breech to use to build a Hawken squirrel rifle for years, and had given up.  One day I had a customer come by with a barrel he wanted me to use to build a Bucks county flint for him.  The barrel was a .40 cal. Bill Large barrel 7/8 across the flats.  The best thing about the barrel was that it had a Hawken breech in it.  It was not hooked, but it was correct.  It was easy to purchase the breech because it was coming out and being replaced for the build.  I am not 100% sure, but I think Large machined it and fitted it to the barrel.  I have it assembled to a .40 cal. Rice barrel and am about ready to start work on my rifle.  There are some correct breech plugs out there, but they are very scarce.  I feel very lucky to have run into this one by accident.  I have gathered photo's of rifles over the past 20 years, and am going to have to decide the exact profile I am going to use for the build.  I am sure Don Stith would be the best to give recommendations on what breech to use and where to get it.  Good luck with your build.
                                                                                           Roger Sells



« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 07:52:31 AM by rsells »

Offline Herb

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 09:09:51 AM »

R.J.Bruce- Yes, they did use drum and nipple.  A William Hawken .40 caplock halfstock was for sale on Gunbroker in March 2006 at a starting bid of $5900.  It did not sell.  There were enough detailed photos of  it that I was able to calculate all the dimensions and choose the correct parts.  I got a .40 Green River Rifle Works barrel with plug from Gardell Powell, who had worked at GRRW.  It was a 13/16" x 36" 1-66 twist barrel, a reject, crooked as a dog's hind leg.  Friend Bill used his barrel straightening vise to iron the bends out, and that took some severe bending in several different directions.  He got it straight and it stayed that way and shot accurately.  I hand-sawed a piece of Vernal (where I live) walnut for the stock and made a very close copy of the original.  Overall length was 51 inches, trigger reach was 12 3/4", with about 3/4" cast off (that's what my notes say, but that seems like a lot!) and 3 3/4" drop at the heel  I modified a Leman trigger to release at two pounds.  It took me 155 hours to build it.  I entered it  in the Uintah Arts  Council Outlaw Trail Festival of the Arts 17th Annual Juried Art Show and won first place in theme sculpture, the theme being "Rusty Rails and Outlaw Trails".




I built a .40 light weight Hawken for Ron, who had shoulder surgery and could no longer handle the heavy .54 Hawken I'd built for him.  It is on the right.  Don't have my notes to hand, but I probably used Track's Hawken 15/16" plug and tang, #Plug-LR-15-5.  I think that was a 7/8" Rice barrel, and I filed the plug and tang down to match the barrel.

On the bottom.  My .54 Bridger copy at top, then two .54 Kit Carson copies, then my .58 flintlock and the .40 Hawken.  It is like a regular Hawken from the lock on back.


Mtn Meek- If you have a 15/16" plug and tang and a 7/8" (14/16") barrel, you need file only 1/32" off each flat.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 09:18:50 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 05:05:31 PM »
Mtn Meek- If you have a 15/16" plug and tang and a 7/8" (14/16") barrel, you need file only 1/32" off each flat.

Herb,

I thought of that error when I woke up this morning and have changed it.  Not soon enough to avoid you catching it, though.
Phil Meek

Offline Herb

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 06:12:12 PM »
You caught me in a similar error on a breech plug, so it tickled me to see you made the same error!
Herb

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 07:32:01 PM »
Thanks for all the replies! 
Herb, if I decide to use a drum and nipple, would the flint beavertail tang breechplug in Track's catalog, # PLUG- BT-15-5 be an appropriate choice?
Thanks again.                   

                                         R.J. Bruce

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 07:59:46 PM »
...A William Hawken .40 caplock halfstock was for sale on Gunbroker in March 2006 at a starting bid of $5900.  It did not sell.  There were enough detailed photos of it that I was able to calculate all the dimensions and choose the correct parts.

Did the Gunbroker listing say whether the William Hawken was Jake and Sam's brother that lived and worked back in Hagerstown, MD?  Jim Gordon has several William Hawken rifles in his collection that are marked "W. HAWKEN".  They are all of a style identifiable to that area.
Phil Meek

Offline Herb

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 11:51:16 PM »
 RJ-   This is an S. Hawken sporting rifle from Jim Gordon's book.  I have his permission to copy these photos.

The long tang.  Yes, the Plug #BT-15-5 would be a good choice.

Mtn Meek-  As I remember, it only said William Hawken.  I have the photos of this copied from my computer, somewhere.  I'll try to find them, but I am sure of the above.
Herb

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 12:26:36 AM »
Herb..
            Thanks for the photos, and the confirmation on the TOW breechplug #BT-15-5.
As a general question to all of the Hawken enthusiasts on this site, is it possible to offer the name(s) of a machinist that would be willing to fabricate a fixed tang patent breechplug that is correct for a Hawken sporting/ squirrel rifle?
I am well aware that the cost would in all likelihood be in the $300.00 range, perhaps even more. I was a machinist apprentice for several years in my youth, so I have a pretty good understanding of just what is involved
Thanks,
               R.J.Bruce

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 12:45:17 AM »
Herb..
            Thanks for the photos, and the confirmation on the TOW breechplug #BT-15-5.
As a general question to all of the Hawken enthusiasts on this site, is it possible to offer the name(s) of a machinist that would be willing to fabricate a fixed tang patent breechplug that is correct for a Hawken sporting/ squirrel rifle?
I am well aware that the cost would in all likelihood be in the $300.00 range, perhaps even more. I was a machinist apprentice for several years in my youth, so I have a pretty good understanding of just what is involved
Thanks,
               R.J.Bruce

Custom machined would be an answer but only to those who can afford it plus the
cost of the barrel,lock,triggers and trigger guard and butt plate PLUS the stock.
I made some in Bill Large's shop and they are labor intensive and hand filing is
not easy even with the best files which we had then.Maybe,just maybe CNC machining
could be the way out of this problem. I won't even consider making them and
am seriously considering dropping lock work altogether. I have 2 more to make,
one flint and one percussion and after that,if I make any more I will post them here.

Bob Roller

Offline redheart

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 02:05:07 AM »
Herb..
            Thanks for the photos, and the confirmation on the TOW breechplug #BT-15-5.
As a general question to all of the Hawken enthusiasts on this site, is it possible to offer the name(s) of a machinist that would be willing to fabricate a fixed tang patent breechplug that is correct for a Hawken sporting/ squirrel rifle?
I am well aware that the cost would in all likelihood be in the $300.00 range, perhaps even more. I was a machinist apprentice for several years in my youth, so I have a pretty good understanding of just what is involved
Thanks,
               R.J.Bruce
R.J.

If you're willing to go to all of that trouble, you'd be better off buying one
of Don Stith's part sets. That way you get all of the correct parts at a reasonable price with no grief.
He even offers an optional hooked breech and calibers from .32 to .50, I guess there are some pretty big squirrels in some parts of the country. ;)
On his web site you can read about the options available, but prices are out of date.
If you want to see what the finished gun would look like you can go on the W.B. Selb ,Hawken web site.
I'm pretty sure he uses Don's parts to assemble his rifles.
I'm not getting a commission out of this, I just think it's the smartest way to go.




Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 02:11:56 AM »
Don is a member here so ask him questions. Use PM's and it will be private. Don's website is Don Stith. Don is probably one of the most knowledgeable person you will find on Hawkin and other Plains rifles. His website is DonStith.com
Dennis
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Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2019, 07:38:17 PM »
Thank you Dennis for. Mr. Stith's e-mail address. I will contact him and take things from there.
                                                                         R.J.Bruce
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 02:59:43 AM by R.J.Bruce »

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2019, 07:40:32 PM »
Stith - not Smith.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2019, 11:31:22 PM »
Below are pictures of a Hawken squirrel rifle that John Bergmann built from one of Don Stith's kits.  I don't know the manufacture of the barrel, but suspect it's a Rice barrel since it's tapered.  The dimensions are 36" long, 0.895" at the breech and 0.833" at the muzzle.  I suspect the manufacture's stamps were draw filed off in fitting the barrel to the breech plug.  It is .40 caliber.

The breech plug appears to be an L&R breech and tang as there is section of full octagon in front of the bolster before the threaded journal starts.





Notice the trigger guard is similar to the one on the original that Herb posted pictures of.  The lock is an RE Davis "Goulcher" lock which is a little smaller than the Ron Long designed Hawken lock and a better fit on the smaller diameter barrel of the squirrel rifle.  The hammer is not the hammer that comes with the Davis lock.  It's the same one that Art Ressel used with his Hawken Shop kits.  Bergmann must have had it his stash of vintage parts.
Phil Meek

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Hawken breech plugs @ squirrel rifles
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2019, 03:07:04 AM »
D.Taylor..
                 I really detest the programing on my phone
I KNOW that I typed in Stith, not Smith; but the $#@<>,$ auto- correction changed his name to Smith.
Shame on me for not reading the post more carefully.
I changed his name to the correct spelling.
Thanks for pointing out the mistake.
                                                                              R.J.Bruce