Slow Motion Video at Friendship

[Larry Pletcher]

Monday was a cool day at Friendship.  Norm Baumgartner from Olympus came at 10:00, and before we were done we taped 47 locks at 5000 frames/second.  I had excellent help.  My son, Kevin, handled the laptop and the CD burning.  The lock handling was done by Steve Chapman and Dave Schnittker, two of my shooting buddies.   We had a number of ALR guys around - I don't remember who all was there.  Each shooter got a CD copy of his lock.  (BTW if you got one that doesn't work, please let me know.)

We did get to see some unusual locks.  Jeff Shingler's wall gun lock was amazing.  At almost 9" long, dwarfed any thing there.  It surprised us at how quick it was.  We taped it twice. once from the back side with Goex cannon grade just for fun.  Jeff, thanks for bringing it in.  It was a real treat.  

Barbie brought in a couple of deluxe Silers that LC just finished.  Barbie related than  LC said "We often thought that the Late Ketland was maybe our fastest lock.  I think these maybe faster.  They're slicker than damit".   They looked like he might be right.  While we're talking about Silers, we did Sam Everly's ball bearing lock.  That lock has so little friction that the lock plate does a "wheelie" - rising to meet the flint.  I'll get it where you can see it.  We also did my test-bed Siler upsidedown.  Davis sent over three I think. All the major lock makers were represented.   HAd some older things, a Haddaway for instance.  I think a 1835 Tower was the only original - has an internal frizzen spring.  We taped the lock's back side too.

We now have a batch of almost 80 locks done at 5000 FPS.  A new playback software package allows frame-by frame advance.  We can now determine exactly what frame the flint adge starts moving, when the flint stops, and when the fire starts.  I am working on a spreadsheet that will break all these down into time intervals.  We can do informal timing with this playback software.  Duiring the summer I want to go over this stuff to be ready for an evening program at the fall shoot.

I'll get a few up on my web site soon to give you a preview -- Jeff's Wall gun lock for sure.

Regards,
Pletch

[Brian Jordan]

Looking foreward to the videos!

[Larry Pletcher]

While you're waiting for a video or two, here are stills of the project.  We're working behind GunMakers' Hall.   These pics are of the folks and the setup for the video.

In #1,2 we're getting the fixture and camera ready




Jeff Shingler and Larry with the wall gun lock.


I'm holding the wall gun lock for a different camera.


Dave Schnittker and Steve Chapman (ALR member)  did the lock work; probably got sunburn.


Bevel Bros, Lowell Gard with one of his experiments.


Here is Lowell's lock firing for the video camera.


Here is son, Kevin, handling the CD and computer work.


Dave and Steve


Pletch and Norm Baumgartner from Olympus


These last 2 are the crew.




Many thanks to Dave, Steve, Kevin, and Norm Baumgartner for all their help.  

Regards,
Pletch

[J. Talbert]

Larry,
I enjoyed seeing your operation in action.  I'm definitely looking forward to seeing some of the videos and the timing results.

Thanks for your efforts,
Jeff

[Tim Crosby]

 Pletch, Thanks for the pics and look forward to seeing the action.

Tim C.

[Larry Pletcher]

Here is a video of Jeff Shingler's wall gun lock.



There are 7 clips uploaded on the following link.  

New custom large Siler by LC(he calls it faster than damit.)
Shingler front side (null B)
Shingler back side (cannon Grade)
Lisle Small Siler (null B)
Everly Siler firing (null b)
Pletcher Siler up-side-down Null B
Pletcher Siler up-side-down cannon powder


http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php

I'll get more but this will get you going.
Regards,
Pletch

[Brian Jordan]

Wow! is that cool, thanks for the pictures, and videos!!

[Blackpowder Barbie]

Hi Larry!  Let me first say a huge THANK YOU!!!  All the time and dedication you have for this industry is very much appreciated.  Your work is fascinating and educational all at the same time.  Like I told you over the week, if there is ever anything I, Dad or the NMLRA can do for you please don't hesitate to let us know!!

The videos look great so far and I know we can't wait to see more and find out more on the time trials!

Thank you and all your helpers so much again!
Barbie

[J Shingler]

Larry
Thank you very much for all the time and effort going into this. I would also like to thank Jim for driving the wall gun up from Mississippi. I had already delivered the wall gun but Jim graciously offered to bring it up for the test. Well worth it to see the videos and I look forward to seeing more.
Thanks again!
Jeff and Jim

[chapmans]

Larry,
 Dave Schnittker and I talked after the filming was completed and agreed that is was well worth the time spent away from the range to help out, I think it was amazing how smooth everything went, I think (Larry's son) Kevin was the key to make it all go so smooth. How about that Zippo???
  Steve 

[jerrywh]

These slow motion photos are extremely important when it comes to subject of lock timing. BUT.
 Lock timing is different than ignition timing. Some locks have such a hot spark and the shower is so intense that I think the main charge is set off at or near the same time the priming charge is. My reason for this is , I have had a few guns that would go off without priming the pan about 30% of the time. When this happens it is like a percussion cap gun . The actual time laps may not be the same as a percussion but the difference is not  discernable to the natural senses.
  I would like to see the actual time it takes to fire the main charge.  The Siler locks in the photo had a tremendous shower of sparks. I had a original mortimer lock that showered sparks like that.
  PS. Fantastic job . I thank you for all you do.

[Larry Pletcher]

These slow motion photos are extremely important when it comes to subject of lock timing. BUT.
 Lock timing is different than ignition timing. Some locks have such a hot spark and the shower is so intense that I think the main charge is set off at or near the same time the priming charge is. My reason for this is , I have had a few guns that would go off without priming the pan about 30% of the time. When this happens it is like a percussion cap gun . The actual time laps may not be the same as a percussion but the difference is not  discernable to the natural senses.
  I would like to see the actual time it takes to fire the main charge.  The Siler locks in the photo had a tremendous shower of sparks. I had a original mortimer lock that showered sparks like that.
  PS. Fantastic job . I thank you for all you do.

Hi Jerry,
Your comments reminded me of timing a handmade lock of Gary Brumfield's years ago.  It's our belief that the sparks triggered the photocell before the prime ignited.  It too was one of those locks that made a tremendous shower of sparks.

For most of my years experimenting with this, I have been zeroed in on the lock itself.   Recently however I have collected numbers that can in part answer your question about total ignition instead of simply measuring pan ignition.  In the April issue of MuzzleBlasts our emphasis was on time from pan ignition to gases at the muzzle - in this case a 2" barrel stub.  In this test time started by the pan ignition triggering a photocell.  In those tests our averages varied from .036 to .038 seconds.   In all my lock timing I've measured from sear contact to pan ignition triggered by the same photocell used to begin time on the previous test.   I'd speculate that adding a lock's average to the pan-to-muzzle times would be a reasonable place to start.  For the sake of hypothesizing, a good large Siler usually will time at .0400 seconds, a few better, and some slower.  Adding the Siler's ignition to the pan-to-muzzle number might give us around .0760 for a Siler igniting that barrel stub.  (That's adding averages to averages but seems like a starting point.)

Steve Chapman and I have been working on a test where we can time a flint gun ignition from sear contact to gases exiting another barrel.  This is basically what I think you are suggesting.  In this test we are limited to locks fitting a small Siler mortice -  a Chambers pistol kit is the basis for out trials.  Some early inconclusive test numbers fell in the .070-.080 range.  We have more to do but set this a side to play at Friendship. 

Since we're back from the shoot I messed up a knee and need a repair done, but don't plan for that to keep us from finishing the test.   I appreciate your comment and look forward to any suggestions you may have.

Regards,
Pletch   

[jerrywh]

Larry.
   You are such a great asset to this sport it defies evaluation. Many thanks for all your dedicated work.
 That son of your is a pretty big guy huh? Someday I hope to meet you in person. I am so busy and so far away from the Eastern stuff it is near impossible for me to get back there. Not this year but next year I will be at the CLA if I'm still alive. Right now I am booked for a solid two years.
  One more question if I may.  Have you ever tried the large chambers Siler with a roller frizzen? Do you think it makes enough difference to be worth converting?
 

[Larry Pletcher]

Jerry,
You're very kind.  Your thoughts mean all the more coming from a builder so widely respected.  It would be a pleasure to chat with you at CLA.  One of my main reasons for attending is the friends I see - that and all the great guns to see.

As to the large Siler with a roller frizzen,  I have not timed one.  I tend to look at individual modifications with some skepticism.  I think some of the best locks do so with careful tuning instead of major modifications.  That said the Siler I have with ball bearings is quick qnd very consistent.  It could be the bearings or it could be the careful tuning that Sam Everly did to it. 

In one case I timed a lock for a maker before and after a series of changes.  After timing the lock he installed a roller frizzen, and the lock was slower.  Another change was made, and I timed it again.  This time is was quicker.  It may have been that a combination of the two modifications did the trick.  I quess we'll never know for sure.   

I doubt there is an answer that fits more than one lock at a time.  Perhaps a roller frizzen is more of a selling point than a magic solution.  I doubt that it will help a poorly made lock, and a superbly made lock probably doesn't need one.

Best Regards,
Pletch

[jerrywh]

Thanks Larry. Good answer.

[Daryl]

Thanks Larry- the video's were superb - as always! -- You're the Man for sure.  We'll meet, some day and it will certainly make mine.

[Larry Pletcher]

Hi Jerry,
I have to correct myself.  I told you I had no experience with large Silers with roller frizzens.  During the high speed video there were two.  I found them this morning when I started to review the results and do the frame-by-frame work.  since you had asked about them, I started with the large Silers for comparison.  Some unusual stuff showed up.

We taped 12 Silers.  For this I discarded results that did not use Swiss Null b for prime.  (Out went the Cannon grade we played with.)  All were large Silers primed with null B.   I picked out the frames where:
1. the flint edge first moved
2. the flint edge quit moving  (These gave mechanical time)
3. frame where the fire was as large as the cock screw. (This is arbitrary, but the best I could come up with. )

From these frame numbers and the 5000 fps rate, times could be established.  Sorted by mechanical times the roller frizzens were #2 and #3.  Sorted by total ignition times the roller frizzens were #8 and #10. Apparently roller frizzens speed up mechanical times but not the total ignition time.  This may simply mean more development is needed in the lock geometry.

Just the opposite happened with the new Deluxe Silers that Barbie brought over.  Ranked by mechanical time they were #8 and #10.  Sorted by total ignition time they were #1 and #4.  Sam Everly's ball bearing Siler was #2 and #3 (in between the deluxe Silers.)

Here are the ten sorted by total ignition time:
1. Deluxe Siler #2
2. Everly Siler (May practice)
3. Everly Siler (taped 6/15)
4. Deluxe Siler #1
5. Pletch's 20 year old test bed Siler (up-side-down)
6. Siler built by another company
7. Dave Sxxxxxxxxxx  Siler (shooter friend's)
8. Cain Roller Frizzen Siler
9. Bxxxxxxx Siler left hand
10 Dxxxxxxxx Siler roller frizzen

To sum up, Jerry, I guess I stand by my speculation.  Roller frizzens sound like fun, but I'll take a superbly built and tuned lock instead.  The Deluxe Silers mentioned here were done by LC Rice.  And ALR member, Sam Everly, of course did the ball bearing lock.  the old testbed Siler was made 20+ years ago by Larry Niday from Nebraska, I believe.

There are many more locks to do.  This is just the large Silers.

Regards,
Pletch