Author Topic: another bone handle knife completed  (Read 2713 times)

Offline WH1

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another bone handle knife completed
« on: March 01, 2019, 08:02:40 AM »
Latest blade just need to add a little patina and final sharpening. The blade is 7 1/2 x 3/16 x 1 1/4 inch 1084 steel with forged guard, octagonal iron bolster, polished bone handle and iron end cap, it is 12 1/2 inch overall length







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« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 04:42:40 PM by WH1 »

Offline webradbury

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2019, 08:41:56 AM »
That is a beautiful knife! Well done
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Offline jcmcclure

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2019, 08:54:32 AM »
Another beautiful piece!

Offline Greg Pennell

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2019, 03:24:02 PM »
Ditto...they just keep getting better!

Greg
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Offline WH1

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2019, 04:22:29 PM »
Thank goodness  :o
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Offline aaronc

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2019, 05:15:39 PM »
Great looking piece.
- Aaron C
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Offline WH1

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2019, 04:43:34 PM »
With its big brother after a little aging!


Offline okieboy

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2019, 07:06:10 PM »
 Very nice work and it is nice to see your forge (I am rebuilding a large heavy Buffalo forge right now). The specialized tongs are also interesting.
 I see knives with this thin triangular shape often by a variety of makers, may I ask where the pattern originates? I have seen little of similar shape when looking at original knives that date from 1700-1850 and wonder if this style got started by the House brothers.
Okieboy

Offline WH1

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2019, 07:34:17 PM »
I am not sure I understand "thin, Triangular Shape"?  are you referring to the distal taper of the blade?

this style of knife, to the best of my knowledge, is classified as a rifleman's knife which was common in the late 1700/early 1800 time period, a precursor to the heavier bowie knife developed in the 1830's.  There are numerous others on this forum who are much more qualified to answer the question and I defer to them.

I have spent time with the House Brothers, Joe Seabolt, Ian Pratt and Rich McDonald among others so you are correct that this is similar to the style they make.  I don't think that they would take credit for starting the style though they are all leading makers of it, IMO. 

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2019, 07:38:27 PM »
These are two very aesthetically pleasing knives.  The flat grind, if that is what you are referring to, has been around forever.  The French coutoe (sp?) which is the forebear of our modern French chef's knife, was and is made this way.  I believe it is more difficult to make the flat grind than just about any other type of knife.
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Offline okieboy

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2019, 09:10:08 PM »
 I am not referring to the flat grind, I am asking about the distinct continuous taper from the back of the blade to its tip. I know that everyone refers to these as rifleman's knives, but when i examine blades from the period the top of the blade and the bottom of the blade are generally parallel for at least half of the blade length, such as the common trade knives that we call scalpers. Obviously I have not seen all of the extant period knife blades. What I am asking is if there are lots of historic blades similar to this or is this a newer old time pattern.
 This style is very pleasing,but I am asking whether this was historically common or not from 1700-1850. 
Okieboy

Offline WH1

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2019, 09:47:55 PM »
You are referring to the distal taper. 
I don't know if it is historically correct or if it is a relatively modern concept to make the blade lighter.  I have looked at a lot of photos of Samuel Bell knives from the 1830-1850 time period and they seem to have some taper but they also have an extremely deep false edge from what I have seen.
Again as I said there are others on this site who are very knowledgeable and I defer to them.

Offline heinz

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2019, 04:24:36 AM »
The distal taper is historically correct.  It goes all the way make to when knives were made of bronze.  The flat blade without taper is also ancient but it is a much cheaper technique.  The taper has many structural advantages with more flexibility near the tip and more rigid at the haft. 


kind regards, heinz

Offline aaronc

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2019, 04:56:41 AM »
My vote is your aging improved already great looking pieces.
- Aaron C
At the work bench.

Offline okieboy

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2019, 11:17:27 AM »
 Dear Heinz, if the tapered blade pattern like the House brothers knives are historically correct for American revolutionary war era rifleman's knives, could you point me towards a photo or reference of some sort? This blade pattern is distinctive and not like the tapered blades of Scottish dirks, rondel daggers, or Italian stilettos. There probably is an American used period blade of similar design, but I haven't seen one yet. I do a fair amount of knife research, but encounter the same obstacles as anyone else interested in perishable items from 200 or 300 years ago. Oh for a time machine.
 Thanks.   
Okieboy

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2019, 10:29:32 PM »
WH1, that is a very beautiful, and PC appearing knife!

Not being familiar with knife making in general, is 1095 steel also good for making knives?  I do have a bit of that, along with O-1 and W-1 tool steel.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline WH1

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2019, 02:32:36 AM »
WH1, that is a very beautiful, and PC appearing knife!

Not being familiar with knife making in general, is 1095 steel also good for making knives?  I do have a bit of that, along with O-1 and W-1 tool steel.

1095 is a very good steel for knives.  I primarily use 1084.  1095 is less forgiving during the heat treat but makes excellent knives.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2019, 05:55:18 AM »
Dear Heinz, if the tapered blade pattern like the House brothers knives are historically correct for American revolutionary war era rifleman's knives, could you point me towards a photo or reference of some sort? This blade pattern is distinctive and not like the tapered blades of Scottish dirks, rondel daggers, or Italian stilettos. There probably is an American used period blade of similar design, but I haven't seen one yet. I do a fair amount of knife research, but encounter the same obstacles as anyone else interested in perishable items from 200 or 300 years ago. Oh for a time machine.
 Thanks.


I'll go ahead and answer the question: the entire "rifleman's knife" genre, including the Woodbury school shown here, is pretty much wholly a modern invention. There are very, very few non-commercial knives that can be positively dated to the 18th century, and none of them look like this. Thing is, though, the originals - the Fort Ti knife, the 1759 dated knife that Don Troiani has, one or two in Grant that were found in Rev War sites, and Minnis' pistol-gripped scalper type -  are mostly really simple and downright crude; just a banana shaped blade with a rat-tail tang jammed onto a piece of antler or bone (the Minnis knife being the exception). No one is going to pay custom knife prices for a replica of something banged out in five minutes by an amateur, and it wouldn't be fun to show off, either for the maker or the user. Hence the market for anachronistic but lovely "riflemen's knives."

The original rifleman's knives were commercial butcher/scalper/trade knives and probably folding knives (not penny or antler friction folders, but those iron-bolstered ones with the upturned tails that seem to have been ubiquitous). If they had a nice fighting knife with a guard and bolsters it would have been a dagger, I suspect.

Just to answer an objection before it is made: Neumann, Grant, and even Minnis to some extent, are guessing on most of the dates they assign to knives shown in their books, so just because there are books full of old knives doesn't prove anything  - a bunch of those could have been made during the Great Depression for all we know. If you restrict the sample size to those knives that have something - find place, date, or construction features - to give you some confidence that they date prior to 1800, they are are as I have described - rare and rough.
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Offline LRB

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2019, 08:33:17 PM »
  Very correct Elnathan. Also surviving single edged knives with guards are rare to non-existent, nor will you find brass fittings or pins. Iron reigned supreme in knife construction. The majority of double edged daggers however, usually have a guard of some kind. What we call rifleman's knives today, seem to have most likely never existed, except a for a few repurposed broken sword knives. Although we knifemakers often make these fantasy knives, if any ever existed they would have been an anomaly. As Elnathan stated, the general carry knives were the common trade scalpers and butchers with beechwood grips, boxwood, or exotic woods, but never curly maple unless the owner installed them himself, and why bother when such knives were so common and inexpensive. They were a use um up, throw away, buy another type item. On occasion a repurposed kitchen/eating knife shows up. We knifemakers are no different than other commercial craftsmen. Within reason, we make what people like, and what sells. That is the truth of the matter. At least as I know it.

Offline heinz

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2019, 12:21:37 AM »
I concur with all of the replies re the the "real rifleman's knife"  I thought the question however was about the existence of distal taper in knives not the prevalence.  Even $45 fencing sabers have distal taper :-)
kind regards, heinz

Offline okieboy

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2019, 01:46:51 AM »
 My question was intended to ask whether the knives, such as made by the House brothers, had a historical precedent or were a modern take that struck most people as "old timey". I think that my question has been answered pretty clearly.
 My further question now is about the use of the word "distal" in describing the profile of the blade. I have looked at definitions of distal in several dictionaries, but can't seem to get a mental fit :-[  . Probably overthinking as usual.
 Really enjoyed the responses to my query, thanks all.
Okieboy

Offline Elnathan

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2019, 02:25:31 AM »
My question was intended to ask whether the knives, such as made by the House brothers, had a historical precedent or were a modern take that struck most people as "old timey". I think that my question has been answered pretty clearly.
 My further question now is about the use of the word "distal" in describing the profile of the blade. I have looked at definitions of distal in several dictionaries, but can't seem to get a mental fit :-[  . Probably overthinking as usual.
 Really enjoyed the responses to my query, thanks all.

"Distal" refers to the thickness of the blade, in this context, so distal taper just means that it is thicker near the hilt than it is near the tip.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline heinz

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 05:02:03 PM »
Elnathan has it right. Going into a little more detail the term distal is probably used loosely in describing blade geometry.  It applies to the thickest part of the cross-section of the blade. A double-edged dagger can have distal taper, although the term usually is applied to single-edged knives.  And most knives have some taper in thickness at the point but that is not what is meant.   Distal taper can also have a ratio or percentage attached to it.  A "4 to 1" distal taper would indicate that the blade tapered from, for example to 1/4 inch at the hilt to 1/16 near the tip.  And the underlying assumption is this is a gradual, sort of straight taper, not some rounding off just at the end.
kind regards, heinz

Offline heinz

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Re: another bone handle knife completed
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2019, 03:23:05 AM »
More importantly, that is a really nice knife that started this thread.
kind regards, heinz