Question on sliding wood patch box lids

[cheyenne]

I humbly ask guidence on the lid construction......questions, do you use the two piece lid, or one piece?  Also, is the front of the box square, or rounded?  I've seen them done both ways, which is better in terms of construction?

On the dovetail section of the lid, is the front dovetailed into the patchbox cut out on the butt stock? I would think if the lid fits well on the sides, the front wouldn't matter that much, but I'd like to hear from more experienced builders before a really make a mess of things. Thanks in advance.

[Dave B]

On the few originals I have seen, one a nice JP Beck the lid had a squared off lid internal in front of the dovetail section. the inlet was done the same way. The JP Beck in the Antique section has a rounded box inlet but no shot of the lid to show its design, it may well be rounded. The others I have seen were original Jaeger's and they had squared off box lids as well none so far had rounded box ends. None had a dovetailed front lid section. Well wait a minute I do remember seeing a late Jaeger with a sliding lid that was flush with the butt stock it had a section that was checkered on the lid, it was dovetailed all the way around the front section. That was the only one I have seen done that way.

I make all my lids for sliding box's using one piece of wood so far. I have not tried to make one out of two yet but will if the need arises. I have heard that it is easier to make a two piece lid. I found making a single not difficult so I just haven't  tried the other yet. I think I would start doing two piece box lids when using highly figured wood and match grain becomes a priority.

[LRB]

  It all depends on who you ask. I do the two piece. I think it easier because you don't have to measure and guess clearance on routing them. I get perfect fits because the base is taken to the stock level. There's no question the lid will fit with minimal play, if any. If too tight, doubtful, a few strokes with sand paper will correct that.

[Stophel]

When I first started doing them years ago, I did them in two pieces.  I figured that it had to be the easiest way to do it.  Well, some time later, I decided to give one piece a try.  I found that it is VASTLY quicker and easier to make them in one piece.  Like night and day.  I cut the dovetails in the lid exactly the same way that I cut them in the stock.  Quick and easy.  The lid itself is no problem to make, it's that d@m4 end cap and latch that are a p.i.t.a.

I make the front end square, and make it a solid stop in the front of the box opening.

[pulaski]

Let me start by stating there are many here with more experience . I've only made 16 rifles . On the ones with wood patch box lids I've made them both ways . I prefer the 2 piece lid , it's easier for me .
The inset area is tapered from rear to front and the front is rounded .The  dovetail goes around the front . Personally , I think it keeps out moisture better and does not warp as easily .
Hunted deer the last two years in nasty wet snow , grounding the but of the rifle in the snow several times , and never had the lid bind up . (It did freeze shut two years ago after warming and then getting frozen .)

[AndyThomas]

I've always used two pieces. I'm just starting on one now and want to try a one piece. For those that do them in one piece, which do you dovetail first, the box or the lid?

Andy

[Stophel]

I lay out and do the box on the stock first.  I want the lid slightly tapered, say about 1 1/2" at the rear, and around 1 1/4" at the front (depending upon what it is...these sizes I just pulled out of the air).  I draw the desired lid position on the flattened side of the stock, then draw parallel lines about 1/8" inside of these lines.  So now I have an opening outline that is about 1 1/4" wide at the rear, and about 1" at the front, more or less.  I cut out the box opening first and get it all squared up.  Then, I cut down the little shelf of wood behind the opening, in front of the buttplate to depth...usually by eye, and it ends up around 3/16" maybe. Now, I have an opening ready for dovetails.  I usually take calipers or whatever is handy to use as a marking gauge and mark the depth of the dovetails along the side walls of the opening, level with the "shelf" at the rear.  I usually just kind of press the depth gauge stick of the calipers against the wall of the opening, and that marks well enough.

Then, I take a chisel and stab along that line, then back cut and repeat as necessary to make the dovetails.  Done almost entirely by eye.  I generally don't make them as sharp as a three-corner file.  They should be a bit shallower angle.

I make the lid virtually the same way.  Draw out the lid and cut a lid blank to proper size and with proper taper, then with a marking gauge (I have one with a little blade in it, and it cuts the mark in), set to the same depth as the dovetails in the stock, score it off on the lid, then cut down a square shoulder there a little way, since the dovetails aren't going to be quite as wide as the lid itself (make a rabbet on each side of the lid).  Now, obviously, the lid blank needs to be a bit long for fitting.  Then, score it again, and back cut and make the dovetails just like in the stock.  Again, I do the angle and depth entirely by eye.  Then just fit the two together.

[flintriflesmith]

I have only used one piece lids. The only original rifle I have handled with a two piece lid was a Jaeger that had the wood lid attached to a relief chiseled cast brass cover.

Based on examining a couple dozen original longrifles, I think the two piece lid was developed in the last 50 years by folks with time and power tools to spare.

Gary

[Ryan McNabb]

One piece lids.  They're not difficult to do - far simpler than jury rigging a two piece lid would be.  And how would you hold the inner dovetail to the lid?  Nails?  Glue?  Nails and glue?  Too complicated.

And the front end of the box is square.  I don't know that I've ever seen a round one.

[Acer Saccharum]

I don't know that I've ever seen a round one.

Round end would be a natural product of a dovetail cut with a router.

Acer

[t.caster]

When I first started doing them years ago, I did them in two pieces.  I figured that it had to be the easiest way to do it.  Well, some time later, I decided to give one piece a try.  I found that it is VASTLY quicker and easier to make them in one piece.  Like night and day.  I cut the dovetails in the lid exactly the same way that I cut them in the stock.  Quick and easy.  The lid itself is no problem to make, it's that d@m4 end cap and latch that are a p.i.t.a.

I make the front end square, and make it a solid stop in the front of the box opening.

My sentiments exactly! Actually I made only the first one in two pieces, all the rest have been one piece and are much easier.  I cut the dovetail of the tapered lid on a router table. Quick and easy. It's the planning that takes more time. The dovetail in the stock is cut in with chisels and a safe dovetail file.

[pulaski]

The lids I've made (2 piece) are all done by hand . Don't own a router.
All have been made with files and scrapers or modified files .
The only power tools in the shop are a drill press and a band saw .
Just seemed logical to dovetail the front end for a better seal .
Thanks , Steve

[rsells]

I make a one piece lid for the wooden patchbox.  I use a mill and dovetail cutter to make the dovetails on the sides of the box and a flat mill to square the front of the dovetail at the front of the box.  The lid is basically easy to make this way once you determine the length and width you want the box.  I round the front corners of the dovetail with a file.  Next, I determine the footprint of the lid on the stock and draw the footprint on the butt stock.  I then file a flat on the butt stock that matches the footprint of the lid.  I draw a rectangle on the butt stock that matches the smallest mating surface of the dovetail of the lid.  I use a chisel to cut a rectangular opening (the depth of the dovetail cut in the lid)  in the stock, and back cut the dovetails on both sides undersized with a chisel.  I have made a scraper that matches the dovetail profile on the lid and use it to profile the dovetails in the stock.  It is a slow process, but makes a good fit.  When I get the fit close, I put a slight taper to the front dovetail portion of the lid allowing it to butt up square against the front wall of the stock opening.  I then install the butt plate and use a Brownell's three sided sight file to cut the dovetail profile in the butt plate to match the dovetail in the butt stock.  Attaching the cap to the end of the sliding box is the part I hate, but finishes the building process of the lid.  I use the same three sided file to match the lid cap to the dovetails on the sides of the wooden box.
                                                          Roger Sells

[Acer Saccharum]

This is how I like to use the front dovetail:

The dovetail on the front of the box can be used to pull the lid in tight to the stock. As soon as the release is tripped, and the lid starts to back out of the front dovetail, the lid loosens up.

Wood doesn't grow lengthwise with moisture, only sideways, so I make the side dovetails looser, and use the front dovetail to take up the play.

Acer

[Z. Buck]

Tom, that makes so much sense i had never thought about using a dovetail on front to pull down the lid, (of course havnt even began to do more thank think about the rifle i will build with a  wood patchbox ...) i will definitely have to file that tidbit away

[cheyenne]

Thanks guys!

[cheyenne]

Watched the Hershal House DVD yesterday, interesting, he says he uses a 2 piece lid, and the shot of the box showed a squared off front, with no dovetail in the front of the box cavity. He also said he doesn't like them as they are too easily lost

[George F.]

I've only made one wooden patch box lid. I used the 2-part method. I made the cavity  with a squared off rear and a round nose with the dovetail. I am fearful, that someday I will be looking for the lid, for pulling the lid back less than 1/2 way, totally disengages the lid. Maybe the lids should show less taper so the lid has to be pulled back something like 3/4 before the lid comes off.  The bottom half of the lid, the one with the dovetail was about 1/4". Maybe the dovetails should be more like 1/2" instead. This would more of the dovetail joint engagement before the lid was pulled free.  Just my thoughts.   ...Geo.

[rich pierce]

I tried a 2- piece lid once and found it harder to get the top piece to fit down tight to the stock. I threw it out and made a one-piece and it went fine and I never tried 2-piece again.  I don't know if 2 piece lids were ever used on originals.

i'll emphasize again that the key to a sliding wooden patchbox is getting a perfectly flat surface on the stock.  By hand (no router or milling machine or stock duplicarver) that takes some time and care but is time well-spent.  Without this, it's very difficult to get a good result.

I make a a lid blank that is a tapered rectangle maybe 1/16" thicker than it needs to be and 1/2" longer than it needs to be when finished .  I make the dovetails go all the way to the end of the lid, full-length, and relieve the end that slides over the stock later.

I make the dovetails in the stock and on the lid so that they are not parallel, but are 1/8" closer together at the front than at the rear.  Just make the dovetails on the lid a little oversize as far as width is concerned, slide it in as far as it will go, see where more needs to come off, remove some, slide it in again, etc.  This way it is always possible to keep a nice tight fit of the overhang to the stock.  When it's in all the way then it's time to relieve the front extension to slide over the stock.  I guess most folks can do this all in one fell swoop but I need to work it slowly so that front extension lies down nice on the stock.  Probably with routers, milling machines, etc it's easier/quicker to get it all nice and tight.