Author Topic: crooked cock  (Read 2650 times)

Offline Phil Neal

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crooked cock
« on: May 26, 2019, 05:36:33 AM »
Is this normal?


Offline Tacksman45

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2019, 06:17:44 AM »
Are you sure the frizzen is not crooked?

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2019, 07:06:21 AM »
I though the same thing. Looks like the cock is slightly toed in and the frizzen is cockeyed out.

Offline Huntschool

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2019, 07:35:48 AM »
Whose lock is it ?  Looks a bit off to me also.
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Offline Phil Neal

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2019, 08:05:04 AM »
Its on my Kibler Colonial.  I have fired it many times and have to place flint at an angle to prevent it from hitting the barrel.  The frizzen is square, the cock is not.  Have sent a email to Jim for his opinion but have not heard back as of yet.  Just thought I would get some of your opinions on this.  What would be the fix if there is one? 

Offline G_T

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2019, 08:07:41 AM »
Chamber's Colonial Virginia lock?

It is hard to judge what is off from the picture. But to my eye both the cock and the frizzen are out of line.

I'm judging the cock is off a bit from looking at the apparent small angle between the inside surface of the cock, and the lock plate. I'd remove the cock from the tumbler and press on by hand. Check to see if it wobbles on one axis or the other. Check to see if it wants to be aligned parallel to the lock plate. You can correct wobble with a little very careful filing with needle files or very careful stoning of the flats on the tumbler.

The frizzen looks rather off as well. But pictures can have distortion making it hard to be certain.

When the frizzen is closed, is the pan cover giving a light tight fit? Or do you see it tilted to the side? If you see it tilted to the side giving a wedge gap and the frizzen is tilted to the side the same way, then send the lock back for some work. Either the frizzen pivot screw holes in the lock plate were drilled at an angle, or the pivot hole in the frizzen was drilled at an angle.

If you see a wedge of light front-to-back, then you can (if you choose) carefully grind contact points away until you have a light-tight fit. It is like inletting in a way, just a heck of a lot slower! But that will have no effect on side-to-side alignment of the cock. It WILL affect the front-to-back alignment. Fitting will rotate the frizzen a little closer to the rear of the lock. That changes the angle the flint engages the frizzen. That might or might not be an advantage, depending on what you've got.

If the frizzen can laterally slide on the pivot, then that is a recipe for having a gap at the barrel - or gouging the barrel, depending on how it is aligned that particular time. That IMHO should be dealt with if it is an issue.

If the frizzen when opened can be rocked side-to-side then the hole in the frizzen is oversized. That is also not ideal.

Some of these things are easier to check with the frizzen spring removed. However it is how it behaves with the spring in place which matters most.

The alignment you show is with the frizzen partially opened. Check the alignment with the cock at half-cock, and the frizzen closed on the pan. How does it align then?

Just recently I heated a cock and reshaped it a little, to move the flint out a little bit to get it better centered on the frizzen. If the cock is secure parallel to the lock plate and the frizzen is fairly slop free and closes well on the pan, that is an option for correcting alignment. But really if it is off by much, something definitely isn't right. Talk to the manufacturer and give them first shot at making a correction. Then if it doesn't meet your satisfaction, you can probably still fix it yourself.

I recommend making certain the lock is in fine order before inletting...

Gerald

PS - See you just posted. It was the lock and gun I suspected. It's late so I'm not re-typing. The part of the above about the cock still applies.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2019, 03:43:55 PM »
If it works I'd leave it alone.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
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Offline Phil Neal

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2019, 07:50:56 PM »
While I tend to agree with Mike B. I will show some different angles and see what you all think.  My issue mainly is after paying such good money I receive a lock that is not straight and true.  Am I being unreasonable?






Offline Bob McBride

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2019, 08:01:42 PM »
I’m not sure if that has slid itself into “normal” or not but I see it more than I’d like, even from highly regarded professional builders. Adjust it yourself, send it off, or make it work. I’m an ‘if I can’t make it work i send it off’ guy myself. The flint should strike the center of the frizzen. YMMV.

Offline tallbear

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2019, 08:27:44 PM »
If you study originals you will find the cock and the frizzen rarely line up ,it's the way they were made.As Chambers copied an original lock his are the same as the originals.Just slide the flint over a bit ijn the jaws until it lines up with the frizzen.As long as it sparks and fires the pan it's fine!!!!!!

Mitch

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2019, 08:30:17 PM »
Production jobs are what they are.I do no production but still  have had
skewed cocks and some occurred before I had cataracts removed.
I have  flintlock started,one of 5 locks I committed to and I will look
at it and see if it's off as well.Somethimes warpage occurs in castings
and less that perfect results are obtained.Inexperienced shop help can
be a bug in the soup as well.
Bob Roller

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2019, 08:31:05 PM »
 If you don't go with Mitch's observation, I would suggest you don't do anything to it until you hear from Jim.

  Tim C.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2019, 08:40:33 PM »
It looks to me like the cock is not "square" on the tumbler shaft. I assume you had it off to polish the lock. I would pull it off and see why it looks like after it is put back on the tumbler shaft square.

I have had similar alignment and fixed it by removing and placing cock back on shaft.
Dennis
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2019, 09:00:40 PM »
Just put the cock in the vise and twist it a  little.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2019, 11:04:04 PM »
Try Dennis first then Jerry. Done quicker than posting on it.

A shot from directly above would be helpful.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Jim Chambers

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2019, 12:35:24 AM »
Phil,
I'm sorry, but I never got your email for some reason.  Otherwise, I would have replied right away.
Judging from your last photo it appears to me that the cock is not attached to the tumbler squarely.  When installing the cock on the tumbler care must be taken to make sure it goes on straight.  If you feel comfortable removing the cock and reinstalling it that would be the easiest solution.
But, as Mitch stated above many original locks do not have the cock and frizzen perfectly in line.  Very few original locks in my collection line up perfectly, and the original we copied does not.
One guy absolutely insisted I make them line up.  All I could do was to heat the cock red hot and bend it over to make it line up perfectly which it did, but it sure looked odd with the cock bent like that.
As always, you are welcome to send any lock back for us to look at and make any corrections possible.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2019, 01:18:42 AM »
THAT is what's called SERVICE and a guarantee.

Bob Roller

Offline Jeff Durnell

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2019, 02:13:46 AM »
Shhhhhh.

Fix it.

Offline Phil Neal

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2019, 04:00:31 AM »
Sorry Jim I sent a email to Jim Kibler, guess I should have contacted you first.  Any way I took the lock apart and reassembled.  The cock is setting square to the tumbler shaft.  It does fire well, I will just continue to offset the flint a bit.  thanks for your explanation.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2019, 04:23:35 AM »
A good lesson here is to try Jim Chambers first.  The Chambers family are good people, and Jim stands behind what he sells. 

Jim might know a small something about locks too.   ;-) 

God Bless,   Marc

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2019, 06:10:23 PM »
From your photo, I'd say the cock is crooked on the tumbler shaft.  It appears to be pinched in at the top and front edge at the same time, taking it out of alignment with the frizzen.
That is easily corrected with judicious accurate filing of the cock's square hole, and re-installing it straight. 

Here's the same lock on one of my creations, to show that the cock doesn't have to be crooked.



D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline Phil Neal

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2019, 07:11:12 PM »
I have taken the cock off several times and it is not setting crooked on the shaft.  Besides if it was it would be rubbing on the top of the plate due to the tight tolerances, it is not.  It appears to be a bit twisted at the neck, which now that Jim has chimed in is OK.

Offline Daryl

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Re: crooked cock
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2019, 06:47:05 AM »
It looks to me like the cock is not "square" on the tumbler shaft. I assume you had it off to polish the lock. I would pull it off and see why it looks like after it is put back on the tumbler shaft square.

I have had similar alignment and fixed it by removing and placing cock back on shaft.
Dennis

My thoughts exactly, but what do I know, other that the cock looks crooked on the tumbler.
Daryl

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