Author Topic: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??  (Read 4132 times)

Offline R.J.Bruce

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Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« on: May 02, 2019, 09:37:41 PM »
Greetings,
                   I tried several different combos using the search function, but could not get an answer.

So here goes: How many different colors were the Carolina Trade Guns painted in??

Most of the ones on Mr. Brooks's old web page were plain walnut, some with simulated military or personal carvings.

How common were the painted trade guns??

How common were the painted ones with the folk art line drawings??

Thanks for your responses,
                                                 R.J.Bruce

Offline RockLock92

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2019, 09:50:22 AM »
https://claysmithguns.com/trade_gun_West.htm
https://claysmithguns.com/Blue_Trade_Gun.htm
https://claysmithguns.com/Bumford_gun.htm

Here is some info for you. As far as I know red, blue and yellow are the only colors we can prove existed. As far as how common? I don’t think there are a whole lot of surviving examples. That being said even painting a gun in a solid color seems like an easy way to spruce it up. Look at people today that paint modern rifles and pistols to suit their tastes. Why wouldn’t people want that back in the day? Technology may change, but people don’t. At least that’s my honest opinion.

Online rich pierce

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2019, 01:36:39 PM »
I’m guessing the ones with ugly stock wood were chosen for painting.  So few Carolina guns survived that it’s hard to say what the proportion of painted ones was but I’d guess it was small.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2019, 03:05:39 PM »
I have read references some where or an other. Blue was mentioned as well as poke a dots. This painting seems to have taken place before the guns were shipped from England. Also the same source mentioned some Indians preferred walnut stocks and others preferred the lighter colored beech.
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Offline Marcruger

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2019, 04:53:09 AM »
"I’m guessing the ones with ugly stock wood were chosen for painting.  So few Carolina guns survived that it’s hard to say what the proportion of painted ones was but I’d guess it was small."

That make sense.  Fender guitars used ugly or laminated up wood for their solid painted colors. Solid pieces of nice wood were used for transparent finishes or sunbursts.  No sense in using nice wood when it won't show. 

God Bless,  Marc

Offline fahnenschmied

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2019, 02:58:58 AM »
Nobody really knows.  I have never seen any sold documentation for solid colors on any trade ledgers, or mentioned by traders or depicted in any period artwork.  The guns painted sky blue at Williamsburg were done so based on a remembrance from some fifty years later on "blue painted stock guns".  This could mean "blue, painted stock guns" as in blued barrels and the stock painted....painted how?  It could have feen faux grain paint, could have been vine designs or some other pattern.  It could even been thick reddish varnish to make the stocks not look like cheap beech.  Lots of refrences to natives liking blue barrels....no mention anywhere from the 18th century Ive ever seen for blue stocks.  In the 19th century the warriors of the Dahomey nation liked guns painted solid red and blue.  To each his own.  I know, its not popular to question the blue paint, but there are different ways to interpret the one sentence that is based on.

Offline Mick C

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2019, 02:14:10 AM »
Regardless of authenticity, those blue guns are just butt ugly....In my humble opinion.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2019, 02:11:53 PM »
Regardless of authenticity, those blue guns are just butt ugly....In my humble opinion.
I don't mind certain shades of blue, but that electric blue is a little hard on the nerves. ;D
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Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2019, 09:49:31 PM »
I mean seriously!!

According to Clay Smith's website, the blue painted guns in the Williamsburg Armory were for trading to "Indians".

What self respecting native would want a gun that color?? The enemy would be able to see you coming from a half a mile away!!!

The folks in Williamsburg must have had high expectations about what the local Indians liked, as there were supposedly 200 of the blue guns stored in the armory.

I agree with Mike C and Mike Brooks, that color blue does not sit well for my eyes. I can recall the first time I saw one of those guns online, I said to myself, "Who the @^^%  would buy a custom gun in THAT COLOR???

R.J.Bruce
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 09:59:00 PM by R.J.Bruce »

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2019, 10:04:33 PM »
I'm guessing, but I would assume the shade of blue might have been a little more mellow. BUT! who knows, maybe the Indians liked bright colors.
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Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2019, 10:58:46 PM »

Quote
What self respecting native would want a gun that color?? The enemy would be able to see you coming from a half a mile away!!!
Not sure if they did want that color or not but the rest of their attire/war paint they didn't seem to be trying for camouflage :)
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Offline BOB HILL

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2019, 11:24:35 PM »
I bought an old single barrel shotgun from an old fellow when I was younge. The forarm was held on by wire and the whole gun was painted about the same color as the guns at Colonial Williamsburg. Every time I see one of those blue guns it takes me back about fifty years. That color was popular for trim on many of the rural houses in this area. It and a fence of any kind was a sure fire way of keeping haints out.
 Bob
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 06:49:47 AM by BOB HILL »
South Carolina Lowcountry

Offline jrb

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2019, 12:24:18 AM »
in the book "The Art of the English Trade Gun in North America", by N.E. Bender, he mentions "sometimes even painted".  (Bailey 1999:26)
I think that book is "British Board of Small Ordnance Small Arms Contractors 1689-1840" by De Witt Bailey.
I don't have it so I have no clue what Bailey says.

Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2019, 01:24:34 AM »
Some of the blues I like, some, like the "electric blue" - ain't no way!

My Ex would always get "weirded out" at a blue house, or blue trim.  Seems that in her native country, Brazil, blue is only used in cemeteries.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline backsplash75

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2019, 08:41:34 PM »
http://books.google.com/books?id=vRoUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA505&dq=%22the+Indian+Capt+was+gratified+and+got+a+rifle+from+one+of+the+soldiers%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fUEwT77sLOLl0QGDm5WUCw&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22the%20Indian%20Capt%20was%20gratified%20and%20got%20a%20rifle%20from%20one%20of%20the%20soldiers%22&f=false


1757



“...Paris, the Trader, who is at the Head of those People, and can, I'm persuaded, get him to visit and assist us with more or less of his People,
 except when they may be put on some Expedition or partiuclar Service from Virginia; but have not taken the Libery even of writing to that Gentlman on the Subject, until I have your Honour's Authority for so doing. I am informed that on their coming over Potowmack, Commissary Ross rode Express to the Governor of Maryland;
Thier Arms were said to be of the worst sort of Sale Guns with painted Stocks,

and that they wou'd fondly have had an Exchange of some Rifles that were among our People. the Indian Captn was gratified and got a rifle from one of the soldiers.” (Colonel John Armstrong to the Executive Council, Carlyle, 5 May 1757, [concerning 60 Cherokees under the Direction of "Capt Paris (a Trader in their Nation)"Minutes of the Provincial Council From the Organization to the Termination of the Proprietary Government volume 7 page 505).

http://asoac.org/bulletins/85_bailey_wilsons.pdf



LIST OF PRESENTS NECESSARY FOR CHOCTAW CONGRESS
(Stuart's letter to Knox Nov. 1778 PRO, Colonial Office Papers 5/80 Page 19)

"1000 Commom Trading Guns (painted stocks)"

period descriptions include blue, white, spotted, speckled, yellow, although yellows, blacks and reds could also be varnish. The only 100% specific paint ID with a color that I can think from the 18th century of is the Williamsburg blue citation. The Bumford gun of course has the vine work, and 1850s trade guns are another item as found on the Arabia.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 08:47:41 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline fahnenschmied

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2019, 06:16:59 PM »
I sometimes see references to trade guns being painted all colors of the rainbow, as found on the steamboat Arabia.  They were not, just a red stain, as here, from an eyewitness:  he later figures the stocks weren't pine but beech or something like it.  https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/finding-two-cases-of-original-trade-flintlocks.49279/   There is still not any documentation from the 18th century about guns being painted blue.  One mention from the 19th century about the 18th century, and it is not clear whether blue meant blue barrels or not.  There are lots of references to natives liking or wanting blue barrels, lots of trade ledgers listing blue barrels - but no blue stocks.

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2019, 05:31:19 PM »
fahnenschmied wrote:

"[snip]I sometimes see references to trade guns being painted all colors of the rainbow, as found on the steamboat Arabia.  They were not, just a red stain, as here, from an eyewitness:  he later figures the stocks weren't pine but beech or something like it. "

A couple clarifications here-1856 painted stock Arabia guns aside (colors supposed to include  "red, blue, yellow, black, green & white:)  gun stocks in the 18th c period could be either painted or stained and varnished to achieve common colors.

Cuthbertson's system for the complete interior management and oeconomy of a Battalion of infantry
 By Bennett Cuthbertson MDCCLXXVI [1776 edition]

* By going to some little expence, it will not be difficult to bring the stocks of the firelock to one uniform colour,
by staining them either black, red, or yellow; and then by laying on a varnish, to preserve them always in a glossy,
shining condition. p91


Cheapo English trading guns in the 18th century like the ones Galton were turning out were usually stocked in beech or walnut
(see Richards, W. (1980). The Import of Firearms into West Africa in the Eighteenth Century. The Journal of African History, 21(1).)

sometimes these guns were indeed painted

(Stuart's letter to Knox Nov. 1778 PRO, Colonial Office Papers 5/80 Page 19)

"1000 Commom Trading Guns (painted stocks)"



fahnenschmied wrote:

[snip]"One mention from the 19th century about the 18th century, and it is not clear whether blue meant blue barrels or not.  There are lots of references to natives liking or wanting blue barrels, lots of trade ledgers listing blue barrels - but no blue stocks."

Blued stuff- plenty of refs around for blued barrels on 18thc trade guns in America.


“400 Indian Fusees London provd blue Barrels Walnut stocks polishd Locks Brass Furniture 16/320”
Inventory of Sundry Merchandise…, London 5 Sept 1770."
SWJP Vol VII, pg 885-888


Blue painted stocks quote is from a man who saw them first hand, I see no reason to doubt that some "painted stock" guns in Williamsburg Va in 1775 were painted blue as mentioned in the 1833 Pension application of Henry W. Nicholson (http://revwarapps.org/r16768.pdf) in sworn testimony by Robert Greenhow.

"Given under my hand, at the Auditor's Office, Richmond, this
2nd day of November 1833
.
S/ Jas E. Heath, AUDITOR Virginia
:
City of Richmond,
To Wit
:
This day Robert Greenhow
an inhabitant of said City & in the seventy third year of his age–being by me duly sworn deposed
–That at the beginning of the Revolutionary War the youth of Williamsburg, among whom he was one, formed themselves into a military Corps and chose Henry Nicholson for their Captain. That on Dunmore's flight from Williamsburg–they repaired to the magazine and armed themselves with the blue painted stock guns, kept for the purpose of distribution among the Indians –and equipped as the minute men and volunteers werein military garb, that is to say, with hunting shirts–Trousers–bucks tails [?]—cockades[?]and Liberty or Death appended to their breastsas their motto –That they could and did perform all the evolutions of the manual exercise, far [?]better than the Soldiers who were daily arriving from the adjacent counties."


We also have this primary quote from 1775 putting "indifferent" trading guns in the Magazine

Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia
1773-1776, Volume 13, Pages 223-4.

Tuesday, the 13th of June, 15 Geo. iii. 1775

"Your Committee farther Report, that before they proceeded to examine any Witnesses they waited on his Excellency, to request that he would be pleased to direct the Keeper of the Magazine to give them access thereto, and, having received the Keys three days after their first application, they immediately proceeded to inspect the Magazine, and found therein nineteen Halberts,
one hundred and fifty seven Trading Guns in pretty good order, but very indifferent in kind, "
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 05:41:54 PM by backsplash75 »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2019, 07:26:44 PM »
This one, that Mikey likes, just struck me as being plastic. It is kinda hard on the eyes.
https://claysmithguns.com/Blue_Trade_Gun.htm


Daryl

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Offline R.J.Bruce

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2019, 08:02:20 PM »
Daryl!!!!
                        Plastic is the word that comes to mind when I see that particular color of paint.

It is the word that I have been searching for, and could not bring to the forefront of my mind, ever since I first saw that image online.

Thanks,
              R.J.Bruce

Offline old george

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2019, 02:59:11 PM »
Darn >:( I wouldn't want to be hiding from the Shawnees along the Ohio with that blue gun ;D

geo
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Offline EC121

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2019, 11:58:50 PM »
Those blue guns don't look too bad once the paint starts to wear off.  It lets the wood show through.  The blue paint dulls and is just in protected spots and open grain.  A little steel wooling, and you have instant antiquing
Brice Stultz

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2019, 01:46:33 AM »
Those blue guns don't look too bad once the paint starts to wear off.  It lets the wood show through.  The blue paint dulls and is just in protected spots and open grain.  A little steel wooling, and you have instant antiquing
That's where I'd go with a gun like that.
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Colors of Carolina Trade Guns??
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2019, 05:31:20 AM »
I won't argue that they weren't sometimes painted blue, but I do find it hard to believe that they would have been THAT blue...  That said, the Indians were, of course, known for their fondness for bright, gaudy colors.

Doing a quick look at 18th century blue pigments, Ultramarine and Prussian blue are much darker, though still with the "electric" quality.  Egyptian blue may be lighter and somewhat closer to Mr. Smith's famous blue.

We do have genuine documentation of at least one painted gun.  That which is shown in "The Death of Wolfe" by Benjamin West.  Barn red with yellow/gold painted sunburst and squiggly lines.
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