Thoughts on this iron mounted rifle

[B.Barker]

I was looking for Leman trade rifle photo's on the web a few days back and ran across this rifle. It looks southern to me with western use among the tribes. The "hook" coming off the trigger bow looks like a later add on, maybe better hold while on horse back. Looks like it was built with a short barrel too. Anyone here of any stories of southern smiths building rifles specifically for western use? Or maybe just a fake. There was no description just the photo.

[Vaquero]

I’m no expert, but it looks similar to rifle attributed to Jim Beckworth.

[JTR]

I would think its an old gun. The wrist has been broken, so the wrapping around it might an original fix,,, or might not be.
The notch behind the hammer looks old, and would indicate the gun was originally a flint. But the current lock was never a flint so its a replacement from some time. It does look as an old original though.
The barrel looks like it might have been cut back a bit from the breech end, maybe when it was percussionized.
The tacks. Good question. They look old, but its easy to make new tacks look old. And the square shank thing is no good any longer as a qualifier, as you can buy square shank brass tacks nowadays.
In the end, Hmmm. Injun guns have been faked by lots of guys for many years. But there are real ones out there too.

[cshirsch]

The original trigger guard was probably broken when the wrist was broken.  The iron guard was most likely replaced when the gun was repaired.

[Elnathan]

J. Hawken, attributed

http://www.muzzleloadermagazine.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=14

[Hlbly]

I have this gun’s twin. 43 1/2 inch barrel, 54 ca. The spur on the guard is correct and original. Spur is broken off my gun but you can clearly see where it was. I don’t see anything Hawken about either gun. And I don’t think either was ever flint. They were almost certainly made in Boonville, MO by one of the Virginia makers that moved there in mid-1800’s, probably John Wilson.

[JTR]

J. Hawken, attributed

http://www.muzzleloadermagazine.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=14

I would say wishful thinking on that!

[Clowdis]

I was looking for Leman trade rifle photo's on the web a few days back and ran across this rifle. It looks southern to me with western use among the tribes. The "hook" coming off the trigger bow looks like a later add on, maybe better hold while on horse back. Looks like it was built with a short barrel too. Anyone here of any stories of southern smiths building rifles specifically for western use? Or maybe just a fake. There was no description just the photo.

The Cody museum has a bunch of unattributed Jamestown, NC rifles in it's collection that were presumably used out west. They don't look like the one in the photos though.

[B.Barker]

Thanks for the link on the article Elnathan. Hlbly I'm with you I don't see anything Hawken about the rifle either. Thanks for posting your rifle and where it came from.

[Notchy Bob]

The rifle in the original post was the subject of a full-page feature in Muzzleloader magazine a few years ago (apparently in the May/June 2015 issue).  The web link provided by Elnathan (above) has a good deal more information than the magazine provided.  The rifle was owned by a Mr. Jeff Hengesbaugh, who did the research and provided the information about the rifle.  My take on his article is that he made a strong case for prior ownership by James Beckwourth.  The Hawken attribution cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and may be less important or significant than the Beckwourth connection.  I believe Mr. Hengesbaugh also believed the rifle was originally a flintlock, but I have my doubts on that.

Publication of the photos in the magazine prompted some discussion of this rifle on a couple of online forums.  I think Mr. Hengesbaugh actually brought the rifle to Bent's Fort, for one of the events there, and let people handle and examine it.  I was not among them, but comments made by others indicate this is a very heavy piece, weighing in excess of twelve pounds.  Ruxton frequently used the phrase "long, heavy rifle" in his descriptions of the weapons carried by the mountain men of his acquaintance.  Mr. Hengesbaugh indicated the barrel is 40-5/8" long, and tapered.

I appreciated Hlbly's comments and pictures.  He makes a strong case for a non-Hawken provenance, and his rifle does indeed appear to be a near duplicate of the Beckwourth gun.

I corresponded with Mr. Hengesbaugh a little about this rifle back in 2016.  He was planning to publish a book about the gun and his efforts to confirm the Beckwourth connection, but I don't know if that ever came to fruition.

Thanks for this interesting discussion!

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

[RAT]

As I recall from the original article (Muzzleloader and the online link), Beckwourth's signature is on the underside of the barrel and appears to match his known handwritten signature. The question is whether the engraved signature is actually original.

[Elnathan]

As I recall from the original article (Muzzleloader and the online link), Beckwourth's signature is on the underside of the barrel and appears to match his known handwritten signature. The question is whether the engraved signature is actually original.

Which is all kinds of odd, if you think about it. Why would Beckwourth sign his name on the bottom of the barrel, and why would an engraving of his name match his signature? Engraving isn't penmanship...Since there isn't anything in Beckwourth's background to indicate that he was a engraver, the only way I could see that happening is if Beckwourth signed his name on the barrel and a competent engraver engraved it in, or if the engraver copied Beckwourth's signature exactly, which seems like an odd procedure.

I have to admit that, until I double-checked when posting the link, I was under the impression that the gun was actually signed by Hawken and there wasn't much doubt about its maker. I thought that the argument for the Beckwourth connection was pretty weird (and the owner cracking upon his scientific background didn't inspire confidence - quite the opposite), but I did like the rifle as an early Hawken, flint or otherwise.

[T.C.Albert]

Well HLBLY's post of the twin to it really puts a different light on things.
Are there any other known secret signature rifles from the period?
Or is that the thing about secret signatures...they're secret.
TCA

[Hungry Horse]

 Remember, anything that seems to good to be true, usually is. The new owner himself has artificially aged many of his own guns. Just sayin’.

  Hungry Horse

[JTR]

Remember, anything that seems to good to be true, usually is. The new owner himself has artificially aged many of his own guns. Just sayin’.

  Hungry Horse

Who's the New owner, and what has he done? Just askin'.

[Hungry Horse]

 Jeff Hengesbaugh shows many of his trail guns in the Book of Buckskinning, and all of them have been aged.

  Hungry Horse

[T.C.Albert]

I may be wrong, but I believe
The last asking price was
$265,000 !
TC

[Dphariss]

I don't see any Hawken there. But it was pretty surely flintlock originally and probably restocked from its original form. If it was used much as a percussion it would show more corrosion/erosion at the breech I would think.

Dan

[moseswhite]

This rifle for sure never saw the hawken shop ! I've had this rifle completely apart and there is not anything about it that resembles a hawken ! And when I had it apart there was no paper under the butt plate with anyones name on it !