Author Topic: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn  (Read 2621 times)

Offline rich pierce

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Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« on: December 23, 2019, 07:37:11 PM »


Andover, Vermont

Offline aaronc

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2019, 06:07:28 AM »
Cool.
- Aaron C
At the work bench.

Offline JohnnyFM

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2019, 07:55:29 AM »
Very cool.  Any more info? Artist? Circa year?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2019, 03:15:47 PM »
Very cool.  Any more info? Artist? Circa year?

Colonel Louis of the Oneidas. John Trumbull sketched this pencil drawing in 1785.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Trumbull
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Lyons

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2019, 09:00:28 PM »
Looks like it had fringe on the bag and flap  and was about  6-8”  across and a little deeper than wide. 

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2019, 10:26:11 PM »
Looks like it had fringe on the bag and flap  and was about  6-8”  across and a little deeper than wide.

Maybe some quill work on the flap. Looks like some design there. Strap looks narrow.
Andover, Vermont

Offline aaronc

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2019, 04:00:56 AM »
Very cool.  Any more info? Artist? Circa year?

Colonel Louis of the Oneidas. John Trumbull sketched this pencil drawing in 1785.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Trumbull


She's held up good for a 200 + year old sketch,..whata treasure. What do you know about the paper type if anything ? Wood fiber or cotton,...or unknown ?
- Aaron C
At the work bench.

Offline Kevin

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2019, 05:39:51 AM »
Rich,

Thanks for sharing this treasure from the past.

Kevin

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2019, 07:04:50 PM »
That is a great find, but one thing that stands out to me about this sketch is that the main focus is on the head and facial features, with the rest of the sketch just there to frame the important stuff. In consequence, the horn and pouch might just be a generic "horn and pouch" as envisioned by the artist, rather than a faithful if minimalistic attempt to capture Colonel Lewis's actual bag and horn.

I think it is likely to be one of those fingerwoven wool bags, due to the fringe on the bottom. I'd have to look, but I don't think that surviving leather bags from this area and time period typically have fringe on the bottom. The quillwork on the flap looks like a leather bag though, so I wonder if Trumbull didn't just draw a generic Indian pouch combining features from several different styles of pouch; OTOH, I do believe that there are some types of flapless bags that have the rear panel extend above the front and have strips of quillwork on leather applied to the rear panel, so maybe it isn't a hybrid after all. I dunno.
Interestingly enough, there is some debate among scholars of Native American art about whether those finely made beaded, fingerwoven bags and the similar leather bags with fine quillwork are typical of the more elaborate types of bags made for actual use by the Indians across the NE/Great Lakes area by or whether they were prestige items made by a handful of skilled artisans in a few centers of production and given as gifts to important chiefs, both Indian and European. Colonel Lewis here is wearing a matchcoat and quite a bit of ornamentation about his ears and hair, which makes me think that he was in "dress uniform" when the sketch was made. I'm not sure that I'd conclude that he didn't use this bag for actual use, though, as I'm not sold on the idea that Natives really made a distinction between ceremonial and fighting/using implements the way we do today. Lots of questions, not many answers.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Dan Herda

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2019, 09:14:55 PM »
Is this scetch in a museum or online access only? Really is a treasure, thank you for posting this Rich.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2019, 11:35:37 PM »
Someone posted it on Pinterest then Art Riser posted it on Facebook.
Andover, Vermont

Offline jrb

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2019, 01:57:18 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_General_Montgomery_in_the_Attack_on_Quebec,_December_31,_1775

the painting is expandable. it looks like a typical Iroquois quilled or beaded hide or cloth pouch with dangling strings of beads and maybe tinkler cones and hair tufts.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 02:13:52 AM by jrb »

Offline jrb

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2019, 02:00:17 AM »

Offline Mike from OK

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2019, 03:53:36 AM »
Was it the Oneida who brought much needed supplies to the Continental army at Valley Forge?

Mike

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2019, 03:31:37 PM »
Thank you, Rich, for posting this interesting portrait and initiating the discussion.

Here is another image, by George Townshend, 4th Viscount and 1st Marquess Townshend.  We don't know the name of the subject, but the artist was a colonel under General Wolfe, deployed in 1758-1759 in southern Canada, and we can assume Townshend's images of native people were either painted from life, or from memories of having seen the subjects during that period.  This image is entitled "An Indian War Chief":




Townshend's art works are frequently seen as caricatures, or cartoons.  However, there is no reason to believe the details aren't accurate.  The man in this picture wears his powder horn high under his left arm, and in fact, all of the Townshend portraits of native men with powder horns show this preference.  I am right handed, and would find this very awkward and impractical, but it does keep the horn out of the way for movement.  I don't see a "shot bag" or hunting pouch in this or any of the other portraits by this artist, although at least one of his other portraits may show a bag hanging from a native man's belt.

You can see this picture as well as several others of similar subjects in Britain's National Portrat Gallery, here: The George Townshend Album

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline jrb

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2019, 06:43:05 PM »
Wow, Thanks Bob for the link. I've only seen two of those townsend paintings before. now i'm trying to figure out how to screen capture them but still get the full painting without cropping off the top or bottom.

Offline JohnnyFM

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2019, 10:33:43 AM »
Agree with Elnathan and would tend to think it’s a finger woven bag.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Period sketch of Oneida man with bag and horn
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2019, 08:27:18 PM »
Like this...



D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.