Maker of PHILADELPHIA marked target rifle?

[Mattox Forge]

Hello all,
Does anyone know who might have made this target rifle? It appears to be an antique, and not of contemporary make.  It is of first rate workmanship. The only marking is on the barrel: PHILADELPHIA
The bore is .400, lands .390.

Thanks,

Mike

[Bob Roller]

No idea as to maker but obvious English influenced style. Have you checked it to see
about the twist of rifling? Ball or bullet or something in between like a Picket ball which
is neither ball or bullet.

Bob Roller

[vtbuck223]

Reminds me of rifles out of NY state from guys like N. Lewis...

[Mattox Forge]

20191231 I Measured Rifling twist. ½ turn in 27.25 inches. Approximately 1 turn in 136 calibers or 1 in 54.4 . NOT a bullet gun. I am going to shoot this and see how accurate it is. I am going to try a 0.375 ball with a 1 dram charge to start and a 0.012 thick patch. I will probably work up to a 3 dram charge, or 80 grains.
Mike

[OLUT]

You've got a nice target rifle! There were several gun makers in Philly that had the skill to make such a gun as yours . BUT, STRICTLY A GUESS on my part, it is SIMILAR to guns made by TRYON in Philadelphia. Tryon's old catalog says they stamp their name on every gun of first quality they made, unless otherwise ordered.... purchasers' names will be stamped on the barrels if required, provided a stamp is furnished to us. Both you photos and the old Tryon image are not the best to work with but here is a comparison

[T*O*F]

I am going to try a 0.375 ball with a 1 dram charge to start and a 0.012 thick patch.

Could we see more detail of the starter?  If it's a one piece then it's a starter and if it's a two piece it's a false muzzle.  In the case of the latter, there is usually a recess for the patch (or paper cross patch) upon which the projectile is placed and then rammed home.  The entrance of the false muzzle will be larger and taper down to actual bore size.  The whole purpose is to swage the load down to bore size.  Your combo is way too loose and will not result in the accuracy that the gun is capable of.  I would start with a .390 ball and a patch of pocket drill.  Balls up to .403 were no uncommon and those molds are available.

[Mattox Forge]

Thanks for the information everyone.

The ring that is mounted to the barrel is one piece. It is carefully indexed to the barrel so that its rifling matches up to the barrel's rifling perfectly. The outer end is coned.

Here are some more pictures.









how thick of a patch do you recommend?

Mike

[Uncle Miltie]

Might have come from the shop of E. Anschutz.  The "Philadelphia" marking looks like the way he marked rifles from that city.  The name of the maker is missing, so just a guess.

Your rifle was originally made as a picket rifle, using a cloth patched bullet of less than 1 1/2 calibres in length.  Patent (or loading) muzzles were never used on round ball rifles.  Such barrels were developed by Friendship competitors who either re-cut picket and slug rifles to round ball twist or made round ball barrels with what are commonly called "false" muzzles.   

Your rifle was probably cut with a gain twist, and may still be unless it was re-rifled in modern times.  You can not reliably measure a gain twist without de-breeching the barrel, measuring the helix angle of the rifling and comparing with the measurement at the muzzle. On most picket rifles there is a circular fly-cut for centering a pre-cut linen patch.  Fine rifle, thanks for posting!

[Mattox Forge]

Thank you for the information. The gun does not seem to have been re-rifled, but I will have to check. I might have a way of determining if the barrel is gain twist without dissembling the barrel. I won't know the breach twist, but the only helix angle that matters is the muzzle one, which can be measured directly.
The loading muzzle does seem to have a shallow counter bore for a patch. I suppose the depth would indicate the desired patch thickness.
I suppose a round ball will still shoot accurately. It just won't have the longer range performance a bullet would.

Mike

[Uncle Miltie]

It looks to me like it probably has not been re-rifled.  There is really no point in measuring the exact rate of twist either: picket rifles used bullets less than 1 1/2 calibers in length.  That should be your guide.  So you would need a picket bullet and a pre-cut linen patch.  I would start with one .010 in thickness.  You could shoot a round ball with it, but you might really enjoy using the rifle as it was intended to be used when originally made.  Finding a good mould would be your biggest challenge; the patch is easy. 

[Daryl]

Hello all,
Does anyone know who might have made this target rifle? It appears to be an antique, and not of contemporary make.  It is of first rate workmanship. The only marking is on the barrel: PHILADELPHIA
The bore is .400, lands .390.

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike- nice false muzzle target rifle indeed.  Slight correction, though, the bore is .390, while the groove diameter is .400", thus having .005" rifling. This shallow rifling is usually meant for
a cloth patched picket 'ball', or a bare grooved & lubricated elongated slug (as there are no paper grooves on the false muzzle). It may however been designed for the rolled, "chase" one piece paper patch. This all, of course, dependent on the rate of twist, as Bob Roller noted.
Very interesting rifle. Thanks for posting it.

In looking at the pictures again, the rate of twist in the false muzzle seems very slow, so likely a picket bullet or maybe a round ball rifle.

LOL - just saw your post about measuring the rate of twist. 1 in 56" - should shoot very well indeed with a patched round ball, but may also shoot well with a very short picket bullet.

[Daryl]

In this picture, the muzzle appears to have been filed slightly (crowned) (as many originals were) to allow loading without the false muzzle.

[Mattox Forge]

The final helix is very shallow, so I suppose the bullet would have to be almost football shaped to be stabilized properly. The typical picket bullet I have seen photos of is very conical, what was the typucal twist on the traditional picket rifle?

Thanks everyone for the replies.

Mike

[Daryl]

I don't know the answer to that question on regular twist, but would assume it would be 36" to 48".
In stating the rifle could be loaded without the false muzzle, I was referring to patched round balls.
A picket would need the false muzzle or - a guide bullet starter with a properly shaped (cupped) rod
to fit the picket's nose, to be loaded straight in the bore.
with such a small calibre size - .390/.400, the picket bullet will be what the gun was designed for, and
likely in the weight range of 120gr. to 130gr.

[Mattox Forge]

I will have to check and see what the inside of the tip of the starter is shaped like. That might then be a clue as to what the bullet shape was intended to be.

[Uncle Miltie]

A "typical" rate of twist for a picket rifle cut with the gain twist is usually from around 1/48" to 1/24".   It's not really necessary to measure the angles because picket rifles use a bullet of less than 1 1/2 calibers in length.  You can if you wish to know exactly, but any disparity between bullet length and twist rate can be countered by tailoring the powder charge.

Early picket bullets had rounded bases along with pointed noses, but these fell out of favor after a short time among target shooters when flat base bullets began to be used.  The nose of your guide starter, if original, would have been cut with the cherry used to make the mould, and would keep from deforming the bullet during loading.

Many different types of bullets were tried but the best ones were relieved in diameter just below the ogive to allow room for the cloth patch to "bunch up" when loaded. This, coupled with the flat base sought to eliminate the tipping that occasionally caused fliers with the old style bullets, and worked pretty well.  Others used this style bullet as well, and began doing so in the late 1840's.

Some rifles were designed for target use and hunting.  These are sometimes called combination rifles.  They were made to be used with both a round ball and picket bullet, with the muzzle of the barrel turned round.  The guide starter was slid over the round part, where the cloth patched bullet could be loaded.  Rifles with Patent, or loading (false) muzzles were usually target-only affairs.  They were expensive, and were not made to be used with a round ball.

A .390 caliber picket bullet of proper length (.625") would probably weigh about 175 grains, when made of pure lead.  Paper patching, Chase patching, grease grooved bullets all came along after the slug rifle was in use.  Slug rifles used bullets of over 1 1/2 calibers in length.

The photo shows a bullet I use in a .38 caliber picket rifle made in Ohio around 1850.  There are three of them, so you can see how it looks from different angles.  This bullet weighs 165 grains, of pure lead.  The large projectile is a paper-patched slug bullet, for a rifle built in 1885. More than 1 1/2 calibers in length.

Hope this helps. I've spent almost 30 years shooting original slug and picket rifles, and try to pass along what I have learned from others in order to get more rifles on the line.