Hawken Furniture?

[Smokey Plainsman]

On the original Sam and Jakes, was the triggerguard and pin escutcheons blued, browned, or Case hardened? Seems the locks, butts, entry pipes, were but I’ve never read about the other parts.

-Smokey

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Trigger guard:  pack hardened, not necessarily with colours.  Key escutcheons:  I'd be surprised if they were not simply filed smooth with the stock and left that way.  Butt plate, trigger plate, entry pipe, lock, tang, toe plate...all pack hardened.

[borderdogs]

Regarding S & J Hawken full stock rifles, would keys be common or pins?
Rob

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks Brosephs, I’m having a Hawken built for me and want it to be as close as humanly possible to the originals when they were made.

[borderdogs]

Ask Brant he has a good idea of what you could expect to find on a Hawken rifle.
Rob

[Mtn Meek]

Regarding S & J Hawken full stock rifles, would keys be common or pins?
Rob

It is dangerous to make hard fast statements about Hawken rifles because inevitably an exception will be out there somewhere.  But keys were used on all that I've seen in pictures or in person.  A lot of full stock J&S and S Hawken rifles do not have key escutcheons, though, and neither do a few of their half stock rifles.

Thanks Brosephs, I’m having a Hawken built for me and want it to be as close as humanly possible to the originals when they were made.

There is so much variety seen in surviving Hawken rifles that to be "as close as humanly possible" you probably would want to pick one and copy it.  Otherwise, it might represent certain aspects of a number of different rifles, but end up a generic type.

As far as the original metal finish on Hawken rifles, we only have a very few that retain much of their original finish.  These few were finished like Sapergia describes.  But did the Hawken brothers finish all their rifles the same way?  That we don't know.

We do know that during this period trade rifles and trade guns were ordered with blue, bright, and brown barrels.  Obviously, customers had different preferences.  Maybe Hawken customers did too.

There are surviving fur trade company documents that describe J&S Hawken rifles as having steel mounts.  I find this choice of wording interesting.  Prior to the Bessemer smelting process being commercialized in the 3rd quarter of the 19th century, there was very little steel used to make a muzzlelaoder.  Generally only the springs in the the lock were made of steel.  The rest was made of wrought iron and case hardened when subject to wear.  The average person of the day, including the clerks working for the company knew that iron was common and steel expensive and uncommon.  So why would they describe the mounts as steel and not iron?

Is it possible that the iron mounts were case hardened and therefore described as "steel" to distinguish them from just plain wrought iron?  As case hardened, they would certainly have a steel skin.

[louieparker]

Like Mtn Meek says they certainly were not all alike. When you get to the late production rifles you see a more common pattern. Which I believe a lot of collectors think of as the Hawken rifle. I did a bench copy of an S Hawken  and had it on display at a show.  A fellow come up and look it over..Then he said "They never made a Hawken like that ! " As for wedges and escutcheons.  I have only seen wedges. No pins. But not always escutcheons. Attaching a photo of a rifle to show this....The barrel markings are badly worn on this gun, but I believe its a J&S.......... LP

[WadePatton]

Like Mtn Meek says they certainly were not all alike. When you get to the late production rifles you see a more common pattern. Which I believe a lot of collectors think of as the Hawken rifle. I did a bench copy of an S Hawken  and had it on display at a show.  A fellow come up and look it over..Then he said "They never made a Hawken like that ! " As for wedges and escutcheons.  I have only seen wedges. No pins. But not always escutcheons. Attaching a photo of a rifle to show this....The barrel markings are badly worn on this gun, but I believe its a J&S.......... LP

Aye, there are always those who "know" more than the experts.  Did you attempt to educate the fellow, or just let him mosey on up the trail? Some are quite set on their "knowledge," others truly want to learn more.

[Daryl]

Very interesting rifle, Louieparker, with quite a heavy barrel & blue breech - likely pack hardened & fire blued.

[WadePatton]

Thanks Brosephs, I’m having a Hawken built for me and want it to be as close as humanly possible to the originals when they were made.

This is most likely going to be a function of the maker's understanding and study of those originals.  Hope it works out to your satisfaction.  I had no idea exactly how different they were until I watched Hershal's building video on them.  Good luck.

[rich pierce]

Thanks Brosephs, I’m having a Hawken built for me and want it to be as close as humanly possible to the originals when they were made.

This is most likely going to be a function of the maker's understanding and study of those originals.  Hope it works out to your satisfaction.  I had no idea exactly how different they were until I watched Hershal's building video on them.  Good luck.

Wade is spot on.  Ideally, whenever a custom gun is arranged, the builder knows more than the customer.  And all details are sorted out and agreed upon before starting, then the builder is left alone to do the planned work. On the other hand there are top builders who I’d be happy to give a broad outline and a couple dimensions, caliber, barrel weight, and let them go at it.

[borderdogs]

I am about to start on a full stock flintlock Hawken rifle and have thought about what is appropriate for furniture and how to finish it. The question regarding pins vs wedges is one of those issues. I was leaning toward pins but for the practical purpose it might be easier to have wedges so as to take the barrel out easier, using a hooked breach that is. For a full stock flint a hooked breach might not be appropriate but it is practical.

As far as finish I am pretty sure I am going to color case all the steel and cast parts except the barrel which I was leaning on browning but haven't made my mind up yet.

As to Smokey's builder, he knows a lot about Hawken rifles and has been building them for a long time. He has owned a S. Hawken rifle and used it as a reference. I have several rifles from him and they are well made I am going to use a full stock percussion rifle I have from him as a model for the one I am building. Thanks for posting the picture Louie.
Rob

[Mtn Meek]

Like Mtn Meek says they certainly were not all alike...As for wedges and escutcheons.  I have only seen wedges. No pins. But not always escutcheons. Attaching a photo of a rifle to show this....The barrel markings are badly worn on this gun, but I believe its a J&S.......... LP

That is a nice Hawken, Louie.  Looks to be the Tom Tobin Hawken.

[louieparker]

Mtn Meek....Yes it is..  If this rifle could only talk.. It would have a heck of a story to tell.  Might even involve severed heads in grass sacks.
To me a very important  Hawken..  Louie

[louieparker]

Wade ...To be honest I have forgot my response .. But I doubt I embarked on an education speech..  He was so sure he was right it would have been like arguing politics......LP

[WadePatton]

Wade ...To be honest I have forgot my response .. But I doubt I embarked on an education speech..  He was so sure he was right it would have been like arguing politics......LP

I understand.  Just today a lady told me she had a gun JUST like mine, was flabbergasted to learn that I made mine, and when we got around to pics of hers, which was found in an old house, and she lives in SE Tennessee---turns out to be a two-piece stocked production replica in marginal condition (and a capper at that!).  I got a little excited for nothing at all-which sometimes is better than no excitement at all!      At least she didn't argue much about it.

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks, yall.

So more or less, I should really just go with what I want as historical examples show much variety or most extant specimens are in such a condition as to identify the original finish is virtually impossible?

So far these are my specs:

-Rice square-bottomed 34” tapered .54 caliber barrel, slow rust blued
-Plain maple stock, maybe a little figure in it just cause it’s purty
-Bone packed mountings and lock

I’m still on the fence as to what the escutcheons should look like. Maybe they’d look most clever in blue to match the barrel? Maybe case hardened would look swell? Maybe bright would offer a nice contrast? Who knows!

[WadePatton]

Mr. Plainsman, if I were in your position and yet trying to sort out legend from fact and learn the most I could on the guns of the final westward push, I'd be studying everything members Herb and Louie Parker ever posted on this forum.  There are plenty others who are well-studied experts on those guns, but Herb has always stood out to me and been fairly active here sharing his work, all of which is top notch in that arena.  He's got a thread going now with listings of parts and discussion: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=58411.0;topicseen

Herb and a few others have likely forgotten more about Hawken rifles (and their many competitors of that time) than many of us will ever know.

[Bob McBride]

Mr. Plainsman, if I were in your position and yet trying to sort out legend from fact and learn the most I could on the guns of the final westward push, I'd be studying everything members Herb and Louie Parker ever posted on this forum.  There are plenty others who are well-studied experts on those guns, but Herb has always stood out to me and been fairly active here sharing his work, all of which is top notch in that arena.  He's got a thread going now with listings of parts and discussion: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=58411.0;topicseen

Herb and a few others have likely forgotten more about Hawken rifles (and their many competitors of that age) than many of us will ever know.

Having a really focused interest really makes you appreciate your Wise Elders. It takes time to get really deep into the weeds and see a picture clearly. Us Whipper Snappers have a lot to thank these fellers for...

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

SP:  file and sand the escutcheon plates with the wood, and leave them bright.

[Herb]

Here is a really good reference-  whitemuzzleloading.com/green-river rifleworks/  On the title page, choose All About Doc-  Books and Articles-  Doc's Ramblings-  nearly to the end of that is "The Truly Traditional Hawken".  There is a fantastic amount of good information and photos here.

[flinchrocket]

http://whitemuzzleloading.com/green-river-rifleworks/

[Daryl]

Excellent read. Tks. My Sporting Rifle has ome of their .69's, bought in 1986 and completed the same year. It was &still is a VERY accurate barrel.

[Smokey Plainsman]

Very much thanks all!!

-Smokey

[Smokey Plainsman]

I read “Doc’s Ramblings” and the part about the traditional Hawken, and man that was excellent material! Thanks for the recommendation!