Mountain Rifle Barrel

[Craig Wilcox]

In it's own way and fashion, she is as beautiful a work of art as the Mona Lisa.  I think most of us "covet" it just a wee bit.

[Collector]

Collector this I hope will get you there.....LP  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10720.msg101907#msg101907

louieparker,  Thanks for providing that link.  I shall not covet, though I certainly would like to see more detailed photos accompanied by dimensions/descriptions (if at all possible,) as I quietly admire it.  It's certainly worthy of more study. 

Using your rifle as a vehicle, I'd like to encourage 'Tanselman' to share with us, a rifle in his collection and do the same with his attributed Robert Hughes #197 longrifle.  Another fine, if not another exemplary example of the iron mounted 'Mountain' schools.

Thanks again.       

[Tanselman]

The John Shell rifle was fully illustrated in "Kentucky Gunmakers 1775-1900." I will not have access to get photos for 2 weeks, but can post at/after that time. It is NOT an attractive rifle like Louie's TN mountain rifle; rather, it is an example of how cheaply some rifles were made in southeastern Kentucky's hill country in the percussion era, in areas strapped for hard money. It looks like a low budget TN rifle, where Shell first lived before moving to KY. Some other southeastern KY rifles made in the then-depressed rural areas have similar hammered, unfiled barrels.

The only comparison is in the hammer-finished barrels...not the rifle itself. With everyone admiring Louie's fine mountain rifle...for its attractive "mountain" stock architecture...Shell's southeastern KY rifles look more like "sticks with barrels." I love KY-made rifles, and some hill country rifles are drop-dead gorgeous, like those made by Pleasant Wilson of Clay County. But even I have to admit that KY guns by Shell are the ugliest bridesmaids at the wedding.

Shelby Gallien

 

[louieparker]

Collector ,,, Sorry but now is not a good time for me to get photos.  If there are any measurement I can provide you, I will. Glad you and others have enjoyed the rifle.. I have enjoyed presenting it.  LP

[Collector]

The John Shell rifle was fully illustrated in "Kentucky Gunmakers 1775-1900." I will not have access to get photos for 2 weeks, but can post at/after that time. It is NOT an attractive rifle like Louie's TN mountain rifle; rather, it is an example of how cheaply some rifles were made in southeastern Kentucky's hill country in the percussion era, in areas strapped for hard money. It looks like a low budget TN rifle, where Shell first lived before moving to KY. Some other southeastern KY rifles made in then-depressed rural areas have similar hammered, unfiled barrels.

The only comparison is in the hammer-finished barrels...not the rifle itself. With everyone admiring Louie's fine mountain rifle...for its attractive "mountain" stock architecture...Shell's southeastern KY rifles look more like "sticks with barrels." I love KY-made rifles, and some hill country rifles are drop-dead gorgeous, like those made by Pleasant Wilson of Clay County. But even I have to admit that KY guns by Shell are the ugliest bridesmaids at the wedding.

Shelby Gallien

Ahhh, but your attributed Robert Hughes, #197 in your book, it quite a different longrifle, altogether.  Simple in appearance and rather elegant in it's lines and architecture. 

That would be another one whose photos and dimensions are worthy being coveted, digitally of course.

[Tanselman]

Collector...I am not sure what Robert Hughes attributed rifle you are referring to...you may have my "Kentucky Gunmakers" book mixed up with another book. Illustrated rifles in my book are identified by a dual number such as #8-12a, which would indicate Chapter 8, 12th rifle illustrated, 1st view of rifle. I have no #197 in my book, which is what you referenced.

Of course, being admittedly prejudiced but still a good judge of stock architecture, in my opinion the finest rifle stock ever mounted with a barrel is on the rather plain "Pleasant Wilson" flint rifle in my book, shown in Figures 10-12a & b. It's iron mounted with a small iron, octagon shaped, patchbox but little else...except the most beautiful, perfect  stock I've ever seen. Of course, I don't currently have photos of that rifle with me, either! It's a Kentucky mountain rifle that puts most others to shame. I "coveted" it for many years after first seeing a picture of it perhaps 25+ years ago. God wasn't too up-set with my "covetness" because three years ago it came up for sale in a California auction, held on the eve of the Super Bowl when most guys were focused elsewhere...and it went for much less than I had planned to pay for it...although my wife still thought it was no steal!  Shelby Gallien

[Collector]

Tanselman,

I offer a  sincere mea culpa.  Without thinking, I associated you with Bill Ivey's attributed Robert Hughes longrifle, from his collection, which he published a few photos of in his book, "North Carolina Schools of Longrifles 1765 - 1865," as #197.

As a historical footnote, apparently there was a long-standing dispute between TN and NC state governments over their shared border.  Not sure that the inhabitants along that disputed territory cared one wit, as it had little effect on their existence, or way of life.  Builders of the mountain schools rifles adopting crossover regional styles and features to their own local and stylistic preferences.

Perhaps Bill Ivey will take note and contribute to this discussion.

This is the attributed Robert Hughes longrifle #197 that I was referring to:
   

[Daryl]

Nice. Those are SOME lock panels on that rifle.

[Tanselman]

Collector...I think we both admire mountain rifles with North Carolina influences. Pleasant Wilson came from NC as a child to KY, so was influenced by the graceful NC rifles. I found a full length view of the fine Pleasant Wilson rifle, made in Clay Co., Kentucky. Note the shortened forestock grip area and 47" barrel with four progressively spaced pipes. The curl is superb beneath the darkened finish.  Hope you enjoy it. Shelby Gallien

[louieparker]

Shelby that rifle does have great styling..I thought I recognized this rifle from the seventies.. But on closer study the box appears to be iron..The rifle I recall had a very similiar box but was silver and everything else was iron and walnut stock as I recall.. It was owned by Carl Van Fleet in the seventies..It also had great lines.. I would bet by the same hand. But that has been awhile back!!  LP

[Tanselman]

Louie, this rifle walked into Jerry Noble's show about 30 years ago. Curt photographed it, just full length front and back shots. Jerry purchased it but turned around and re-sold it quickly...and it disappeared for a long time. Fortunately, Jerry gave me the two old photos of the gun when he knew I was researching Kentucky-made firearms...and that was when I fell in love with it. I never thought I would see it in person until, bingo, it showed up in a CA auction on Super Bowl Sunday...only gun in auction if I recall, kind of a fluke to be there. I was driving south on Interstate 75 in Florida when I got the call to phone bid on it...I got the rifle rather quickly, no competition, and was so excited afterwards I drove 20 miles past the exit where I was supposed to get off, before I realized what I was doing.

Jerry had another damaged Pleasant Wilson years ago with some small silver inlays, but barrel shortened and iron guard lost. I grabbed it immediately, but never got around to restoring it. Then I picked up this fine Wilson, and last June I was able to acquire the fanciest known Pleasant Wilson with quite a bit of silver on it, and a round Ger. silver patchbox, also with great maple in the stock. I have seen two other Wilson rifles over the years [not in great shape], and all had maple stocks, similar architecture with significant butt curvature, long TN tang ending down in front of the comb and terminating in a spade-shaped finial. These rifles all have the unique feature of the iron guard having no front extension. Instead, the tang bolt comes down through the extended trigger plate [which looks like the guard's front extension] and screws into the front end of the guard's bow where it curls back up and in. But of all the Wilson rifles, the one I posted above has the most beautiful stock architecture...the others were close, but not quite...

When I picked up the signed John Shell rifle of Jerry's several weeks ago down at Lake Cumberland, I actually bought it because I had just sold the damaged Pleasant Wilson that I never got around to restoring. I had cash in my pocket...so for the first time in my life, I decided to buy an ugly gun! But Shell's work is important to the study of Kentucky's Cumberland Plateau region, or hill country, and I am glad to finally get it after seeing it each year at Princeton for 25 years. Just in case anyone has an interest in John Shell, a somewhat notorious gunsmith in Kentucky who at one time claimed he was the oldest living man in the world [don't believe it!], I did an extensive, 3-part article on his life and known guns in "Muzzle Blasts" back in Nov. and Dec. of 2011 and Jan. of 2012.  Shelby

[louieparker]

Shelby some of the details you mentioned may or may not have been on the other rifle.. can't recall the details. I may be way off on the shape of the stock..But I remember is as very stylish..
I do hope your wife was with you when you passed your exit.  That would probably have resulted in a very educational speech..  LP

[Dennis Glazener]

One of our members "Howard" sent me these photos of three hammer forged barrels and I asked permission to post them. Here they are. I will let Howard tell you more about them.
Dennis

This is the first one

This is the second one

This is the third one
I'm always in awe when I see a barrel hammered out & used & not even filed.  The person who did this was a craftsman. Howard

[Tanselman]

Three views of same rifle...but not enough to show us what the actual rifle itself looks like. Any chance we can get half-length views of front and rear, showing from butt up to about 8" past the lock plate area? This one almost looks like a Kentucky-made rifle, so it got my interest tweaked. Also nice to know barrel length and bore size, and if any name or initials are on top barrel flat several inches behind rear sight. Shelby Gallien

[Dennis Glazener]

Three views of same rifle...but not enough to show us what the actual rifle itself looks like. Any chance we can get half-length views of front and rear, showing from butt up to about 8" past the lock plate area? This one almost looks like a Kentucky-made rifle, so it got my interest tweaked. Also nice to know barrel length and bore size, and if any name or initials are on top barrel flat several inches behind rear sight. Shelby Gallien

That will be up to Howard, I will be glad to post them for him if he has or is willing to take the photos.
Dennis

[Howard]

Shelby, When I get a chance I'll get some other pictures. Didn't you photograph this years ago ?  I have owned this relic for about 50 years. It came out of the Wm. Vietor Shop. After Billy died I bought several  of the old relics from his son.  Billy got this from a local family that came out of Kentucky. It has a 41 1/2 inch barrel & around .40 cal. bore. Gene