New carving, need help.

[pintail_drake2004]

Well my last carving, a leaf, went over like a lead balloon for my Lancaster. So i had to start over. Here are a few "c scrolls" i did. slightly different but not bad. These are my 1st attempt. Will these be PC for a Lancaster?






I know they are not great, since they are my first attempt. but last time i did that leaf like 50 times and it turns out it wasnt good enough. So before i spend too much time on these i wanted some input.

Pintail

[Black Hand]

While I am no expert, your scrolls don't flow as they should and lack dimension....

[pintail_drake2004]

elaborate on that would ya? im new to this stuff

[Swampwalker]

What you show does not look like traditional 18th century longrifle carving.  What I would recommend is that you find some pictures in one of the many books on original rifles, and draw out the various carving designs - don't even try to carve them until you can draw them well.  Then, once you can draw out what you want, start trying to carve them until what you carve has definition and depth, and looks like the originals.  Also, I highly recommend following the tutorials in the tutorials section of this site.  Once you can copy original work successfully, then you can get creative; in effect you've developed an alphabet of the various leaf and scroll elements through your drawing and practice carving attempts, and can begin to put together original designs.

[t.caster]

Pintail, what are you using for a tool? An HOW are you using it?

[Acer Saccharum]

pintail, theere are MANY ways to get similar results, yet I am not sure what kind of tool you are using.

I use a parting tool, (also called a Vee tool), and drive it with a mallet to move it through the wood. When I come to curves, I reduce the power on the hits, and make the hits more frequent.

To get a smooth curve, it is best to be able to swing your body around the turns as you are tapping the carving tool. Standing up, with the work at a comfortable height is a must.

Good lighting and magnification help tremendously.


If you have any, I would like to see some of your preliminary drawings.


Good for you, making this effort.

Acer

[Bill of the 45th]

Pintail, it's good you have a thick skin, and take criticism well.  Tom is correct in asking what tools you are using, and the technique used.  I would suggest you check out Acer's tutorial, get some basic tools, and try and duplicate his lesson first.  I wouldn't buy a set of gouges, and chisels, as you won't use half of them.  Also before carving you need to also learn good sharpening skills.  I that cutting you were doing was with a veining tool, it's seriously dull, and you were tearing rather than cutting.  remember everyone here wants you to succeed, so ask, process, and practice some more.  I myself am abeginner, and the biggest thing I learned was that your tools, can never be sharp enough.  Even with hard maple, your tools should slice through it like the proverbial hot knife thru soft butter.  Study, study, practice, and don't give up.

Bill

[James Rogers]

Yes, toss that dremel tool.
Acer has a great carving tutorial here. It has helped me.
I am still just trying to learn to sharpen the tools : )

[T*O*F]

Another thing.......I hope that isn't your actual gun.  You need to get some good hard scraps of maple to practice on, and keep practicing until you are able to cut your pattern well.  Then move on to the gun.  Some wood isn't much better than pine and if your stock is soft maple or black walnut.....your tools need to be SUPER sharp.  Also, if the former is the case, it's probably only suitable for incised carving (which it appears you are trying to do) and not raised carving.

Also, your pattern has to FIT into whatever space you are trying to carve in.  Trace that area on a piece of paper and try to draw your pattern into its confines.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Look carefully at this original. Acer's tutorial is your best answer. You have to be able to cut smoothly and cleanly. That takes VERY sharp tools.

Keep working and showing your work. everyone will help. BTW there is a difference between knowing how to carve and being able to do it well.........I am not sure I have enough years left to do the necessary practice!!  On the other hand , you really can do much better!

[Larry Luck]

Pintail,

My suggestion is that you start by drawing scroll.  Paper is cheaper than maple and pencils are easier to sharpen than chisels!  Get a copy of "Rifles of Colonial America" (V1 or V2) for early guns or Kindig's "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in its Golden Age" and a sketch pad.

The scrolls are stylized vegetation, and should flow in a natural fashion.  Some original gunsmiths had a better hand than others.

Then move to practice pieces of wood.  For my last rifle (# 2 for me), I used a "Quaker" and practiced on it.  I carved the design and rasped it off two or three times.  Being able to work on the curved surface of a practice buttstock helps translate two dimensions into three.

Good luck and keep at it.

Larry Luck

[Walt S]

This is something you could try. Go to http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ , this is Gary Brumfield site. On the left of the screen look for Tools & Techniques, when that page starts up look for the Power Point Slide show on relief carving. Start up the slide show, its takes a little time to start up on my computer. You could print this carving and use it to practice on. Parts of this carving are what you are trying to do. Mybe Mr. Brumfield will write in with some help.

Ws

[Tim Crosby]

  Not an answer to the question but the answers given here are what makes this site so Great.

 Tim C.

[JTR]

Dr Tim,
That's a pretty good example of Lancaster carving; Jacob Dickert about 1800.

Pintail, Why don't you copy that pic to your computer then print it out. Then just trace around the carving with a pencil several times. That will give your hand a chance to feel the curves and how to make them.
You need to be able to draw it, before you can cut it.

John

[pintail_drake2004]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Well for starters, i do not own a set of small gouges, I do have some rather large ones my fathers uses on cabinets. Though I am 23 years of age so you think learning would not be a problem. There are two reasons i do not use gouges: 1)  I fell 2.5 stories roofing a house and broke my back, and severely injured my spinal cord. Because of that, I shake too much, and it is really noticeable in my hands. (i use to draw very well but cannot anymore because of that). 2) the day I fell, to add salt to the wound, I hit a rafter and ran a 16p nail through my right eye. Small details, and intricate things are very hard to see even with mangification. So i use a power tool because it allows me to shake a little bit and i feel i have more control.  My power carver-runs at 400,000 rpm or more. I have looked at acers tutorial many many times. I am not new to carving, but this is my first time for a rifle. I know with this being my 1st rifle i have built it wont be 100%, but I want it to be close. I have plenty of maple to practice on so no worries there. I am not wanting something big and fancy, just simple and nice.

[Larry Luck]

Pintail,

That puts a lot into perspective.  God bless you and keep working at it.

Keep posting here and let's see some more photos of your work.

Larry Luck

[jmforge]

GRS sells clear soft plastic ink stamp sheets with scrolls for engraving pratice.  There might be something similar out their for carving.  I have never tried carving, but Ihave taken a couple of shots at practicing wire inlay on scrap wood and those little stamps helped to get the shape of the scroll right.

[John SMOthermon]

Pintail ,  Here is my first try at carving ,I had trouble finding any patterns to go by so i found this scroll of sorts at Lowes or Home Depot and tried to copy it. I know it's not like what was on the original rifles but i thought it would be good practice. I bought a chunk of 1x6 maple at a local store & a cheap set of chisels and went at it. I still have along ways to go before i would ever think of carving on a rifle but i did find it very relaxing & i didn't want to stop once i got started. I'm still not finished with this one i have to smooth it up some which i plan to do with needle files & sharp chisels ( if i ever figure out how to sharpen them )   

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Pintail, welcome to ALR.  I admire your desire to do good work, especially given the adversity you face.  Hang in there... I wish you well.

..... Will these be PC for a Lancaster?

I believe to do appropriate carving on a long rifle you will need to use traditional hand tools, gouges, chisels, etc.  If you use a power tool, it's going to look like you used a power tool.  Also, the appropriate carving will have at least some raised (relief) carving...  tough to do with a dremel.

The picture DrTim posted is a fine example, but your first carved rifle doesn't have to be that fancy.  A simpler design, executed well will look great on your rifle.  As suggested earlier, look at the reference books for ideas.  The cost can be an issue, so check them out from the public library and/or the Inter-Library Loan program first, then decide which to buy.

I can't draw worth a hoot, so I trace, copy, etc.  You can pull elements from several pieces to create a unique design.  The clear plastic french curves I found at the hobby shop help me get nice smooth lines.

You don't need to buy a huge set of carving tools just to try it out.  Search the web for woodworking tool suppliers and look for hand carving tools called "Power Grip".  They are Japanese and sharper than @!*%?&.  Get the small gouges and V tools.  They cost $7 to $9 each and will get you started.  I have found some on sale as low as $4.

Magnification could help.  I have one of those lamps with the articulating arms and a built in magnifying lens.  It can be a pain to constantly position it, but I won't carve without it.

Good luck and keep showing your work.  I know from experience, the guys here are happy to teach those with a desire to learn.

-Ron

[Berks Liberty]

Pintail,

I admire what your doing and feel confident that you can do what ever you put your mind to.  If a power carving tool is what you have to work with, and you feel comfortable working with it then keep using what you have to.  I don't have the same physical limits as you might but I know if you keep practicing then you will over come.  Keep trying different tools. Even if it is a hand chisel.  Keep it simple and then progress.  Baby steps.  The thing is...the gunmakers used hand tools like the chisels and such to do their work.  Your work will probably look like a power carver did the work, maybe down the road with practice it won't.  But if your happy with the final result then that is all that matters.  The worst thing you could do is give up.  I'm not an expert builder but I know anyone can do anything, when they put there mind to it.  Can't wait to see your progression.  This is a great site and everyone here will help you out.  See ya

Jason

[JTR]

Pintail,
So sorry to hear of your problems.

But please keep trying!

If you're most comfortable using a dremel tool, then keep practicing with it! You are the only one that needs to be proud of the gun you build and the satisfaction that you have from building it!

If you cut your design with a dremel it won't look like the originals, but so what?

It'll be something you made with the tools that you can use most effectively, and you can be rightfully proud of the results.

The carving on the picture posted looks difficult, but if you just concentrate on the main lines of the scrolls, they're actually pretty simple.
Study that picture and others you may have, and focus on making just the main parts of the scroll. As you get a little experience you can add a few details to the design.
Also, you might want to try using different size cutters in the dremel. A big one for the main scrool, then maybe a smaller one for the details.

Study and practice, and post some more pictures!

John

[California Kid]

Have you tried to use a knife, like an exacto? It can be used to stab in your carving, which is a different method than Acer uses. You might be able to learn to use it with 2 hands and gain some control over it. I think it woud be easier than using the power tool and you woud have more control.