Hawken builders, historians and knowledgeable ones- Your wisdom

[bptactical]

Setting up a build and I need some technical data. I have a nice piece of old growth walnut, straight and clear grained, it will be half stocked, Rice 54 1 1/8" tapered barrel, TOW hook breech, Davis lock, early style buttplate and trigger guard rifle.
Something different that is not your atypical "Hawken"
I have a few sets of drawings to work from such as the Robideaux prints, TOW Bridger & Carson rifles, Log Cabins etc but there are some details I am having a hard time tracking down.
I am thinking a "Transitional" type rifle, with features of both early and later styles, Tennessee style cheek piece. I figure a 1/2" ramrod tapering down to 7/16".
I could use a bit of thoughts on some of the finer points:
I want to go with early style rectangular headed wedges, anybody have approximate dimensions of the heads?
Flared lock panels- anybody have approximate dimensions across the panels? X wide at the front, Y wide at the rear?
Any good resources you can think of?
Thoughts?

Thank you & stay safe & healthy

[rich pierce]

There’s a wealth of information on original Hawken rifles here. Search in Gun building and in the Collecting forums.

A Tennessee style cheekpiece is normally only seen on fullstock Hawken rifles.

Louie Parker, Herb, Bob Browner (not a member here) and other masters would recommend building a replica of a specific original rifle.

Don Stith is a great resource but I see you have your parts set already.

Phil Meek has done a lot of gathering of information on original a Hawken rifles and has collected a lot of pictures, many posted here.

[Scota4570]

Hawken rifles were hand built and varied quite a bit.  The stereotype rifle like Jim Bridger's or the Carson rifle only represent one way they made rifles.  Don Stith may be able to provide drawings of the original Carson rifle.  That one has a bend in the toe line of the stock.  I am not sure why it was done that way, I suspect simply a variation of a hand made item.  I guess my take is to not get paralyzed by getting every detail perfect and correct.  IF you want a bench copy that is good too, it will be a copy of one particular Hawken. 

I recently viewed the Donner party hawken.  I really wish I could document it properly but it does no look like it will happen. 

[bptactical]

There’s a wealth of information on original Hawken rifles here. Search in Gun building and in the Collecting forums.

A Tennessee style cheekpiece is normally only seen on fullstock Hawken rifles.

Louie Parker, Herb, Bob Browner (not a member here) and other masters would recommend building a replica of a specific original rifle.

Don Stith is a great resource but I see you have your parts set already.

Phil Meek has done a lot of gathering of information on original a Hawken rifles and has collected a lot of pictures, many posted here.

Thanks Rich.

Not interested in building a replica, you can't swing a dead cat over your head without hitting a replica of a certain rifle. Looking to build the rifle I want with traits of the brothers rifles that you won't see another one "just like it".
Hence the Tennessee cheek piece, I have 2 Sharon barreled fullstocks that have the Tenn style CP and I like the look and feel.
The only absolute we can say about the original Hawken clan rifles is you can't say "They never did that" or "They always did it that way". They were individually built rifles of a certain feature set.
Just because we are not aware of a Tennessee cheek pieced original half stock it doesn't mean they didn't build one.
I want this rifle to be one that if you see it you will have to pause and go "Hmmm, I've never seen that but it works on that rifle".
Like I said in my OP, maybe a "Transitional" rifle.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

With your concept in mind, I think I'd aim for a J & S Hawken styled rifle.  That way, you can incorporate early and late features and still be in the ball park of credibility.
If your slides or barrel keys are 3/8" wide, the heads will be no more than 1/2" wide...only a bit of head past the edges of the keys.  Be sure to cut a slot down the keys for a keeper pin...very important.

The buttplate on the Sharon rifles isn't authentic...there are much better ones 'out there'.

Barrel weight:  I recommend cutting your muzzle off making the barrel around 32" long.  Otherwise, your rifle will weight 12 or 13 pounds.

Be sure to post pics along your build, and we'll pounce on you if you're heading astray.

[T*O*F]

Flared lock panels- anybody have approximate dimensions across the panels? X wide at the front, Y wide at the rear?

Those measurements are immaterial.  Your lock bolster will determine where you lock sits, thus setting the width of your panel.  The only way to change that is to add metal to the bolster to kick it out where you want it.

[rich pierce]

Anyone wanting to build a one-of-a-kind can do whatever they want, so not sure why questions on what’s authentic or not.

[Bob Roller]

Anyone wanting to build a one-of-a-kind can do whatever they want, so not sure why questions on what’s authentic or not.

In 1967,on Thanksgiving Day I finished my representation of a late Hawken.
I would have called it authentically bogus and made no pretext about it and anyone who saw it
could tell it was a Hawken "type" because the triggers and guard said so.
Tom Dawson's copies were the ones that set the standards for today and probably
for years to come.
Bob Roller

[Herb]

I saw in your post of March 7 that you were having Pecatonica shape your walnut stock, planning to use an L&R lock.  If they inlet for that, the Davis lock will not fit.  They do not inlet for a Davis lock, so do not have them inlet the lock.  Either the L&R or Davis triggers will work, but they have a different length inlet.

I would not use Track's plans for the Bridger or Hawken rifle to build from, if you want something like the originals.  See my gun building thread to find out why.

I have photos of the Hawken at Lincoln, NE that Robidoux drew plans for.  See:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40680.msg3950.  I took about 90 measurements of this rifle, and also for the Bridger, Carson, Liver Eating Johnson and a few others.

I don't remember ever seeing rectangular key heads on a Hawken.  Perhaps Phil Meek will comment.

Re lock panel widths- they are posted in this Gun Building board by me.  I have RELOADED all my photos in this board, and answers to all your question, and more, are there.  Just click on my name, "Profile info" comes up, click on "show posts", and this shows 44 pages of all my posts, with photos.  All my gun building photos are there, but I have not yet done the Antique Arms Collecting or Black Powder Shooting, but will reload those, too.

[Mtn Meek]

I could use a bit of thoughts on some of the finer points:
I want to go with early style rectangular headed wedges, anybody have approximate dimensions of the heads?
Flared lock panels- anybody have approximate dimensions across the panels? X wide at the front, Y wide at the rear?
Any good resources you can think of?
Thoughts?

Thank you & stay safe & healthy

I know of no source with measurements on the rectangular headed wedges.  Sapergia's suggestion of making them about 1/8" larger than your key dimension is probably best.  The pictures of them in Baird's book and in Jim Gordon's book suggest they are only slightly larger than the key.  Interestingly, the rifles in those books with apparent rectangular keys are all full stock rifles without escutcheons.

Herb referred to a thread he posted of some of the lock panel dimensions.  Here are a few more:

From Baird's book, the Medina Hawken lock section dimensions are 1-3/4" at the front and 1-3/8" at the rear.  The breech is 1-3/16" wide.

From personal measurements:

Kit Carson S. Hawken rifle 1.70" at the front and 1.37" at rear of lock panel.  The breech is 1.125".

S. Hawken in Gordon collection, page 382 in his book, 1.69" at the front and 1.46" at rear of lock panel.  The breech is 1.16".

S. Hawken boy's rifle in Gordon collection, pictured on page 51 in The Peacemakers by R. L. Wilson, 1.46" at the front and 1.26" at rear of lock panel.  The breech is 0.97".

Your choice of a Tennessee style cheek piece on a half stock Hawken is not new.  Back in the 1970s, GRRW offered that option on their Hawken rifles.  Below is one they made. 




I've seen other half stocks that GRRW customers ordered with the Tennessee style cheek piece, some with flintlocks.  Not knowing any better back in the 1970s, this is what they thought an early J&S Hawken might have looked like.  Several more Hawken rifles have come to light since then, and the conventional wisdom has changed.  As Rich Pierce pointed out, we know of no surviving unaltered half stock Hawken mountain rifles with the Tennessee style cheek piece.  The surviving specimens like the two pictured below were clearly originally full stock rifles that were cut back to half stock during their working life.  There are known small caliber Hawken sporting rifles that are half stock with Tennessee style cheek piece, though.

[Herb]

Phil, You really come up with the authoritative answers!  I really appreciate your effort.  Guess the OP is too busy to thank you.

[borderdogs]

Well, I will thank all of you. I appreciate the info on the Hawken rifles from people that know. I have read a lot on them and it seems I always pick up something new about them. So thanks guys
Rob

[deepcreekdale]

Over the years, I have had several customers wanting something similar to what it seems you are looking for. My suggestion was rather than  building a "fantasy Hawken" how about another similar half stock plain style rifle. Hawkens were apparently not that common and made up a fairly small percentage of the guns taken west. A little research will turn up pictures of lots of interesting half stock rifles,  similar in general outline and construction, but definitely different from a Hawken. I tip my hat to someone who can build a perfect replica of a specific Hawken rifle, and they are beautiful pieces IF PROPERLY DONE. If done wrong however, they can really look atrocious and believe me, you will have plenty of people to point out every little error you make. Good luck on your project.

[Bob Roller]

I am considering making another group of Hawken style set triggers and am wondering
if there is enough interest in them to justify buying material to make them from.
The 1/2x10" and the 1/2x9" are the ones I have made for decades,mostly the 10"type.
The cast ones seem to work OK and apparently no shortage of them from the assemblers.
Mine are $70+$8.30 for USPS flat rate.Please DO NOT send any deposits because at this
point in time I am OUT of material for the trigger bar.
Bob Roller

[bptactical]

Good morning all, hope all are safe and healthy.

A couple of things first and foremost- a huge thank you to those that are sharing their knowledge and yes Herb, unfortunately I have been too busy to respond. I have this pesky thing called a J-O-B that get's in the way of all sorts of other fun things. The joy of being an "Essential" employee, my work is insane right now. I am just glad I am still working and save for a total Apocalypse I will continue to be (I would likely be even busier in an Apocalypse).

I talked with Don Stith at length, right now he is having part supply problems on the J&S so his parts are virtually unobtainium at this time.

Herb- I know in the past I did speak of a precarve Pecatonica stock. As I did more research and discussions I decided a blank would be best and snagged a nice piece of old growth, straight grained American walnut from Tiger Hunt (nice guy by the way and very knowledgeable.)
Thank you for the guidance on your postings and a huge thank you for taking the time for the documentation of your research and work. Hopefully I can manage the time to work through it all.

D Taylor - Again, a huge thanks to your documentation and sharing of your knowledge. J&S is kinda the direction I am leaning. The info on the wedge keys is just the sort of information I am hunting for. I have already pared the barrel back to 34", I was planning on getting it mocked up and seeing where we end up weight and balance wise and play it from there.
I understand the point on the Sharon buttplates, I am not using one (more on parts later) if you ever saw this post:  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53377.0    I have those rifles.

Rich- I understand the point of being an absolute purist and how some view any deviation as sacrilege. If I wanted an absolutely correct copy of a rifle I would pony up the cash and contract one of the well known, historically accurate builders.
I want to build MY rifle.
I already have a Pedersoli Rockey Mtn (.54), the pair of aforementioned Sharon barreled fullstocks in .54, a Sharon Trade rifle in .54 and an as yet unbuilt CVA Big Bore Mountain Rifle in .54.
I want this rifle to have technical correctness yet be a unique piece. There are too many "replica of XXXX Hawkens" out there. I liken it to the classic car world, I might be restoring a Corvette, but it doesn't have to be Concourse D' Elegance to be right and attractive and do what you want it to do.

Mtn Meek- Grateful for your knowledge as well, I kinda like the look of the GRRW rifles. Again, they break the cookie cutter approach. Believe me, I will spend time perusing your contributions and documentation as well, thank you for taking the time to document things the way you have. Thank you again.


Here is the shakedown on parts so far-
Stock- Tiger Hunt straight grained old growth American Walnut halfstock blank.
Barrel- 1-1/8" tapered to 1" Rice RB grooved, hand lapped by Jason.54, 34" currently, Breeched by Jason with a TOW Bridger slant breechplug (Herb, I know what you say about the funky hump on the tang-it is funky.) I did have to TIG some material onto the left side of the tang, it had a really deep "divot" in the waist of it, I plan on reshaping the waist to the Robedeaux shape.
Lock-Davis percussion lock
Trigger-L&R triggers
Buttplate-Upper Missouri Trading Co early style.
Nosecap-Upper Missouri Trading Co.
Wedges are TBD, I may end up rolling my own.
Trigger guard- Here is a bit of a quandary, I have early styles from Upper Missouri Trading Co, MLB and Log cabin. All of them seem to have too much "meat" to them, too thick in cross section. In looking at as many pics as I can of originals the TG had a certain "delicacy" and "grace" to them, there was no more material than had to be there. Not so IMO on modern offerings. I definitely prefer the wider 7/8" or so bow along with the round style scroll.
It looks like my "Heat and Beat" skills may get a renewed visit for it.
Entry Pipe- TBD
RR pipes- roll my own
Under rib- MLB's "Hollow" (fastened with D T's riveting technique)
Sights-TBD



Again a HUGE THANK YOU for those that have shared wisdom and taken the time to document your findings and work and please, keep your thoughts and ideas rolling in.
I am forever in your debt for what you share.

Please understand if I cannot respond immediately, it's not that I am ignoring anything but my work is keeping my fun time to a minimum.

Thank you again all

Be safe, be healthy.
Funny thing, when they first came out with the whole "Social Distancing" thing the Mrs. looked at me and said, "Well, I guess you wont have to practice at that, your already an expert!"

[Elnathan]

  The surviving specimens like the two pictured below were clearly originally full stock rifles that were cut back to half stock during their working life.

That second one looks like it has had quite the life. Any more information on it?

[Herb]

BP, thanks for that gentlemanly reply.  I really figured you were busy, but wanted Phil to know his reply was appreciated by someone.  Anyone who posts a reply to answer an appeal for help knows the feeling  that comes when there is no response from anyone.  Good for you!

[Herb]

BP- here is a full-size enlargement of a photo of the Kit Carson rifle, photo by Jim Gordon.  You an see the head is small (and although on the lock side, it is not pinned and used to be on the left side, per Phil Meek's examination of the rifle and discussion with the rifle's curator at Sante Fe).
On the left is Track's escutcheon #In-slot-2-I and Key-36-I (.362 wide).  That head is much larger than original Hawken Keys.  Below and above the photo key and escutcheon are my hand-made escutcheon and filed-down key head.  I still needed to dome it a little more.  Taylor's answer was a good one, key about 1/32" wider at a side than the key.  Make your head accordingly, that would be good.

My inlet escutcheon and filed-down 36-I key.