Whites using Trade Rifles?

[Smokey Plainsman]

I have recently taken a keen interest in the Indian trade guns, particularly rifles of the 19th century. Guns such as the Lemans are really fun and cool to learn about.

I’ve researched a great deal and am coming up a bit short. My question is wheather or not any white people, settlers, plainsmen, guides, etc. ever would have used these Indian trade rifles? Would a European white man look out of place carrying and using one? Were they ever considered a “second rate” gun? Etc.?

-Smokey

[WESTbury]

That is an excellent question Smokey.

I would think that given the expense of long rifles in the days when most wages were very low, many people would not have looked down upon the Trade Guns. Particularly those headed out West with their families.

[Ray Nelson]

Trade guns and rifles were quite important to the fur trade. They were often referred to as "common" or "commercial" and carried by many Europeans on the various frontiers. There were some other grades produced referred to as "fine" and of course "custom" orders with certain specifics called for in the particular order. These firearms have fascinated myself for years as the majority of the artifacts I have had the pleasure to view are related to these types of firearms. They came from many gunmaking sources and areas to numerous to expound on here. If you research you will find some are unique and that various styles and patterns emerge to become a fascinating study, at least in my way of thinking.

I'm glad to hear of your interest.

Ray

[rich pierce]

Leman, Deringer, Henry, and many other shops made thousands of guns. Some of their orders came from the federal government for transfer to tribes. Many other guns and rifles were traded to whomever had money, pelts, or hides. With some exceptions the guns specifically intended for tribes were not substantially different from the guns they made by hundreds and thousands to sell to whomever. This Deringer rifle patterned after one in the book “For Trade and Treaty” shares many characteristics with many guns by the Deringer shop.

[redheart]

In the book "The 1837 Sketchbook of the Western Fur Trade" by Norman which is a compilation of famous sketches of the 1837 Rendezvous by Alfred J. Miller, there is a sketch of two Mountain Men and one is holding a rifle with the distinctive "eagle head" patchbox of the Derringer Trade rifle and the other mans rifle has a patchbox commonly seen on the J. Henry trade rifle. Miller was known for his extreme attention to detail, so I believe that this allows us to document at least two styles of Trade Rifles used by Mountain Men/Trappers, although I feel I must point out that Tryon is known to have made 550 contract rifles in 1831 for The Office of Indian Affairs to provide to the Choctaw and Seneca tribes when Derringer was falling behind and there is at least one of these that copies the eagle head patchbox. It's also possible that these trappers weren't necessarily whites.

With your interest in trade rifles and such, two books that you will love are "Rifles of the American Indians" by Ryan Gale and "For Trade & Treaty" also by Gale. Now that I have them, I can't live without them.

[jdm]

Most of the makers with contracts with the government for Indian guns also sold the same type to the general public and fur trade companies .Basically any style  rifle/gun made in the East could of and probably went West.
Here's a couple of pictures of trade gun styles . One made by John Dreppard the other by  Jacob Fordney. These two are what's called the Lancaster pattern. The other is not a trade gun but it was involved in the western expansion. It was made in  Bedford  Co.by John Amos that was found on a ranch in Colorado.






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[rich pierce]

I love those sturdy Lancaster late flint guns for the trade. Thanks for posting. Some nice ones in our virtual museum.

[smylee grouch]

There are several Deringer rifles in Jim Gordon,s museum of the early west along with many other makers of such guns. These so called trade rifles were probably more common on the early western frontier than any of the St. Louis plains rifles.

[Smokey Plainsman]

I love those sturdy Lancaster late flint guns for the trade. Thanks for posting. Some nice ones in our virtual museum.

Yes, I agree!

[Kevin]

Smokey,

Here is a quote from the "The Trade Rifle Sketchbook" by Charles E. Hanson, III: "Many of these guns were sold to Indians but just as many were used by the fur companies to outfit trapping brigades and to sell at the annual trapper rendezvous."

Another insightful publication is "The Hawken Rifle: Its Place In History" by Charles E. Hanson, Jr.  The overall theme is that many other types of arms were present and more numerous in the fur trade era with the various pattern of trade rifles be the most common.

Both books are from the Museum of the Fur Trade/The Fur Press.  Not sure if they are still in print but both are worth finding.

Enjoy,
Kevin

[Elnathan]

Here is an article by Bob Plott on, among other things, firearms used by various members of the Plott family: https://www.huntinghoundsmen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/plott_bob_npha_news.pdf

Judging by the patchbox design, the Amos Plott rifle, described in the text as a top of the line gun, is in fact a Henry Derringer trade rifle that ended up in the hands of a White hunter in Western NC (gotta wonder if it wasn't originally intended for the Cherokee prior to or during Removal).

[WESTbury]

Elnathan--Thanks for posting the Plott Hound article, extremely interesting from a number of perspectives.

It has everything, dogs, flint rifles, percussion rifles an pistols, Remingtons, Winchesters, Mausers, accoutrements, old cars, old guys and even Yogi Bear hanging upside down. What more could you ask for.

[flinchrocket]

My grandad had a blowing horn like that for his fox dogs. Miraculously, none of my relation knows where it went. When I was young ( 4 or 5) I went fox hunting with him several times. Mostly, it was a bunch of old guys sitting around the fire chewing the fat.

[Hungry Horse]

 I think it should be understood that there really wasn’t anything inferior about these trade rifles. Yes a high end rifle, like a Hawken was better quality, but, it wasn’t monumentally better. In fact some trappers, and explorers, got trade rifles early on, and never felt an upgrade necessary. Many upgraded to a Hawken, or something equivalent long after their day in the fur trade were over. Kit bCarson carried a Henry trade rifle before he bought his first Hawken, and T.J.Hall came to California from the fur trade with Fremont, carrying a Daringer trade rifle.
 I think trade rifles were more popular in the West, because they were more robust that the average “Kentucky” rifle, and bigger caliber.

  Hungry Horse