Remove Breech Plug?

[DHouse]

Good Day Gentlemen,

With a heavy heart, I'm in need of some advice. Should I remove the breech plug from the barrel when inletting the tang?

This is my first ML and I bought the nicest kit recommended. As I'm dry-fitting the tang/barrel for the 100th time, something doesn't seem quite right so I pumped the brakes. I'm not going to talk bad about the literature I've purchased for this build but basically there was no mention of the "draft" required on the breech plug area, to allow it to wedge itself into the stock. As you can imagine, I over-carved my stock. But my question is mainly driven by the breechplug being severely stuck in place. I'm positive I can get it out, somehow, but do I really want to/need to?

I can probably file the breechplug/tang to the 'draft' shape without removing it from--or damaging-- the barrel, but it will be tedious. I'm used to working from detailed blueprints and engineering-on-the-fly but boy this glaring hole in my knowledge was very aggravating and humbling. Still can't believe I thought it was a perfect parallel-fit. Goes to show how highly I think of the master gunsmiths. Are there any other tips you have, books, or videos that helped "clear up" something for you guys when first starting?

Thanks,
-D

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I always file the draft on the tang and lug of the breech plug at the same time I'm filing the finial on its end.  I install it into the barrel, and inlet the plug with the barrel attached.  For me, it ensures that I inlet it straight in line with the barrel.  If the tang is tapered, ie:  narrower at the barrel than at the other ed, remember that as you go back toward the butt, you will leave space alongside the tang where there was once steel, so go straight down if you can.  That's where you'll enjoy working with that draft you took the time to file in.

If you have an inlet that offends you, simply glue in a block of matching wood, or a couple pieces along the sides, and have at it again, after you have filed the draft.  Only a few degrees of draft will make the job much better and far more enjoyable.  Once you dress off the tang and wood together after inletting, stain and finish, you likely won't even see the joint(s).

[smylee grouch]

What kind of kit is it? If your kit is one with a "lolly pop " tang and it is stuck you risk the chance of an unwanted bend in the tang when you try to pry it out so real caution is needed in its removal and a draft will help down the road when ever you try to take it out.

[ScottH]

I think he is trying to get the breech plug out of the barrel to work on the tang and file a draft on that part.

The breech plug is supposed to be tight, and the the face of the breech plug should be in solid contact with the shoulder left in the barrel where the female breech plug threads end and the bore/rifling begin. It may require a special wrench for the task and a good stout vise with protective jaws for the octagon barrel.
Here is a link to some tools and fixtures for the task:

https://www.ricebarrels.com/other%20products.html

[Elnathan]

The Rice breechplug wrench and vise inserts are well worth the money, particularly if you are removing the plug from a Rice barrel.

[BOB HILL]

If you start to glue wood into your tang area, stain the new wood and the area with the stain you intend to use on the gun before you glue. If you don’t it will be hard to stain anywhere glue soaks into the wood.
Bob

[DHouse]

Thank you all for such helpful responses. It seems I’m referring to the breechplug lug. I essentially started inletting it right out of the box(while attached to barrel), whereas I should have removed it from barrel & filed the draft into it first. Now that I know about the Lug Draft, my question is should I even remove the breechplug at all? I've heard some guys don't ever take it out. What is the biggest reason for removing it if you will inlet it as one with the barrel anyway?

D.Taylor, I appreciate your helpful response, only thing I’m not understanding is “where there was once steel, and go straight down if you can”: Are you saying that the tang should maintain vertical walls while the breechplug-lug has drafted walls? Or are you just saying to be careful when dry-fitting tang so I don’t accidentally create a hidden little air-pocket in there?

The barrel is a Rice 46” 12 ga smoothbore Octagon-to-Round and has a tapered-style tang where it’s narrow at barrel and gets wide toward the butt. It’s roughly 2” long. I want to keep it this simple shape for both historical accuracy and ease of assembly, being my first build.

ScottH, link of the day! I didn’t know they sold that, I can see how it will work really well thank you for that, trying to place the order now.

[Not English]

I've never inlet a breechplug by itself, So I won't say anything. The one thing I will mention is to stamp a witness mark on the bottom of the breechplug/barrel intersection. Sooner or later, you'll end up puliing the breechplug.

[elkhorne]

Welcome to the forum! You will learn a lot from these guys. To reinforce what Taylor said, look at Mike Brooks article from April 12, 2020 titled “I got worms” and he shows exactly what Taylor told you. Mike goes into detail with photos on how to “patch” wood errors so you won’t even see them. Good luck.
elkhorne

[oldarcher]

Everyone has an opinion and a "best Practice" on each part of building. The one main rule above all others is the Breech Plug. It must be fitted exactly correctly or significant damage may occur, both to the rifle and maybe the shooter. The plug may be fitted on a lathe and by hand or just by hand, in any event the END of the Plug MUST make solid tight contact with the inside rear of the rifling/bore of the barrel and must contact the rear of the exterior of the barrel, and I always index the makers stamp on the bottom flat. This is a tedious process and can easily be improperly done. This is complicated by the hole that is drilled and threaded for the plug having a slight angle from the pitch of point of the drill bit. In other words the inside of the barrel may not be a 90 degree mating surface. This is more pronounced on small caliber and large plugs. If this slight angle is not taken in account when fitting the plug you will have a small gap at the point where contact is very important. The plug seal happens from the labyrinth of threads and snug tightening of the plug, not just from the contact point of the end of the plug/barrel. The danger is tightening the plug too tight/or not tight enough....The temptation is to get the fit close and then really crank it tight, barrel/plug steel can fatigue and excess repeated tightening will cause this weakening. I generally tighten to about 80-100FT #. This may or may not be correct for your barrel, just what I have used as a guide line. I also use a small amount of Loc tight Blue, I have never had a problem removing the plug with a little heat. I realize that Loc tight is controversial and many builders will not endorse this practice but I like the extra seal. Many builders use a anti-seize on the plug. I have shot thousands of shots and have removed the plug only a few times after it was originally installed.
I understand that this long winded reply is not exactly on point, But it covers removing the plug. Once the plug is set, Index mark it and leave it alone. LEAVE IT IN THE BARREL AND INLET THE BARREL TO THE STOCK. Removing the plug from the barrel will possibly cause misalignment of the barrel plug. The draft you mention is desirable but not mandatory. I also fill the very slight imperfections in the lower inletting of the plug/tang with AccuraGlass for tight airless contact. The glass reinforces the Barrel stock contact and should not be visible when the barrel is installed. If you have hogged out too much wood, take the advise above and fill with wood scrap and reinlet. I hope this helps you. The one thing that you learn is that the process of rifle building is a constant learning experience and can be quite humbling. The talent of a builder is measured my how well he learns to repair his mistakes. Good Luck
 

[Craig Wilcox]

There ARE reasons to remove the breechplug, which is why I lube the threads with anti-seize.  One is being talked about in another thread here, and that is installing the touch hole liner., if used.  The liners are generally longer than the barrel is thick, so the breech plug needs to be removed to  file or grind the portion of the liner that protrudes into the threads.  Otherwise, you will be continually fighting cleaning the barrel thoroughly, as the patches will entangle on the liner, and grime will accumulate in that area.

Good luck with yiur first build - you are in the proper place to gain a great education.  But the price is steep - you have to clean all of our guns for us one time only.  And straighten up our workbenches.

[moleeyes36]

Dhouse,

Judging by the number of posts you've made, I gather you are rather new to the forum.  Consequently, you may not know what a treasure of information is in the tutorial area of the forum.  You may find it beneficial to browse through there.  Most of the tutorials contain pictures or videos on how to do things associated with gun building.  This is nice because often the advice you get here on the forum in response to a question, though very good advice, is difficult for someone new to gun making to understand.  So if confused about something or just needing some graphic material, check it out.  Mike Brooks' tutorial on gun making is a great place to see many tasks illustrated https://americanlongrifles.org/PDF/tutorial.pdf.  Long ago I printed it out and had it spiral bound.  Also, welcome to the ALR forum.

Don Richards

[Not English]

I always file the draft in the breach plug with it in the barrel. it's easier to clamp in a vise and file the draught with a file with a safe edge. The main reason for putting the draught in is to fool the eye. When looking down on something inlet in a stock, a draught makes it look much tighter because you will always see wood in the gap. A vertical inlet will show a gap. If you have a good fit right now, I wouldn't worry about it. If you need to tighten up the fit some, I use 5 min. epoxy colored with the appropriate dry pigment. Make sure you cover any metal  surface that will come into contact with the epoxy with vaseline to prevent bonding. All you need to do is fill the gaps with epoxy and clamp it up until it sets and cures.

[DHouse]

You guys all bring up great points. Thank you for such detailed replies.
Craig that makes sense I’m not sure if I’ll do a liner or not but can see exactly what you mean with the liner-length vs barrel-wall thickness, I’m now definitely planning to remove the plug. Don, thanks for the link I am so happy to have this at hand and have already been referencing it. I’m an admirer of Mike Brooks guns and am grateful to see he’s provided such a comprehensive resource.
I’ve gotten PM’s from other gents too and just want to thank ya’ll for all the help. This forum is invaluable.

[bob in the woods]

Jim Chambers sells a video specifically addressing the assembly of "kits".
M. Brooks has a tutorial on this site.
Mr Kibler has posted a series of videos showing the assembly of his kits.
There is a lot of information out there. Best advice I can give is to be patient.     Fixing mistakes is part of the journey !