Silly "what if" question for good smoothbore PRB shooters?

[Canuck Bob]

I'm wondering how accurate you would be with a gun setup like a fowler or trade gun only adding rifling to the barrel at 100 paces?

With the condition of my eyes using a pair of barrel sights is useless.  I use peep sights when possible.  Testing here all my rifle front sights are in focus and targets are reasonably sharp.

In reviewing the capabilities of smoothbore prb shooters around here I thought the following.  What would be possible at 100 paces using good smoothbore techniques with a rifled barrel.  Dual use of shot, 2" groups, and my glasses taped up with peeps doesn't interest me ( I do use an Eyepal ? with barrel sighted guns occasionally).  Sighting in by gently bending the barrel sure is interesting      . 

[smallpatch]

I'm a little confused...... how do you add rifling to a smoothbore for 100 yds?
Guess I missed something

[Daryl]

I think I understand. Bob wonders what accuracy he can expect with a rifle with only a front blade.

I would think accuracy would be much better than a smoothbore, at any range past 25 yards, I'd say.

I have 2 flip-up rear sights on my hunting rifle, Bob and if all are laying down, sighting is taken over the rear sight boss
placing the front blade and bead in the middle of the barrel.  I've only shot it this way to 50yards and I would say the
loss in accuracy is about double normal group size. Since normal grouping at that range is 1/2" to 1", groups with just
the front sight, is about 2" to 2 1/2", still quite good.  I would expect to easily be able to hunt deer or moose/elk or black
bear to 100yards without having to use a rear sight.
Hope that answers your question.
Of course, I might have missed the question as well.  It happens.

OR - he is asking about accuracy with a smoothbore at 100yards using a peep sight in his glasses.  I would suggest your
accuracy at 75 yards might be good enough for deer, but actual testing & load development would be VERY necessary.

[Canuck Bob]

Daryl nailed it.  It is just the opposite of a smoothbore rifle.  A rifle without a rear sight. 

I am leaning heavily to picking up a LH Chambers .45 Lite with the B weight barrel.  The friendly folks at Chambers assured me there are no obstacles to getting a kit into Canada except lack of money  .   If this was a possibility I wouldn't have to jerry rig a peep and any future owner gets an unmarred gun.

Edit: I should add I had my heart set on a trade gun.  A major part was the lure of shooting a smoothbore with a prb.  I would enjoy the challenge and find it rewarding to master.

Has anyone ever seen this configuration in an original rifle?

[Canuck Bob]

Daryl, is your 50 yd reports bench or offhand above.  I've seen some posted targets.  You and Taylor are marksmen.  By the way who is LB?

[Hungry Horse]

 I think your major issue is shooting a smoothbore with a patched round ball. I think Reasonable accuracy with a smoothbore at the range you mentioned is possible. But, I also believe you don’t need a patch to make that happen. Smoothbores are zeroed by bending the barrel. A tight patched ball will eventually straighten the bend out of the barrel. A gun with the features you mentioned is likely not to be allowed in many shoots or events.

  Hungry Horse

[JW]

Bob,

I thought I understood you desired a rifle without a rear sight but with the profile of a trade gun, but then this comment confused me, "Edit: I should add I had my heart set on a trade gun.  A major part was the lure of shooting a smoothbore with a prb.  I would enjoy the challenge and find it rewarding to master." If you want to shoot a smoothbore with a prb, then shouldn't you just get a smoothbore barrel?  Smoothbores I've owned shoot pretty well without a rear sight. If you wanted the rifled barrel, there were a few shops (including the Wilsons) who were making large numbers of trade rifles for the Indian trade in the 18th century. These were basically Lancaster knock-offs. There are kits out there. I know Clay Smith offered trade gun rifles kits at one point. You could simply forgo the rear sight and accuracy will be better than a PRB in a smoothbore from the distance you're talking about, though you might want to ensure the dovetail isn't already milled. That would technically be a trade gun, but not a Carolina gun or NWTG profile.

[bob in the woods]

You can purchase the Chambers Penn . smoothbore with a rifled barrel if you like.
Back in my early smoothbore shooting days there was a fellow who was using so called " scratch rifling"
on his trade gun, and was getting some pretty decent groups. Scratch rifling was done with a ram rod jag and some course emery paper.  The judges at the match weren't impressed!

[Canuck Bob]

I did want a trade gun very much.  A 24 gauge to be exact.  Recent health set backs have resulted in restrictions and make a .45 caliber my upper limit.  Sadly I had to scrap the Trade Gun build.  Any gun I build or buy must be a flintlock rifle of .45 calibre so the kit or purchased gun is as saleable as possible. 

After looking and reading a Chambers left hand Haines B weight .45 is my choice for a kit gun if I find the time or money.  That lead to this hair brain question which I'm starting to regret. 

I simply wanted to consider the possibility of using front sight only smoothbore shooting techniques with a rifled muzzleloader.  However all I accomplished is being very confusing, my apologies. 

[kudu]

Well this is a good opportunity to Bragg!!!!!

At the Michigan Territorial last year I shot a 38 out of 50 with Trad gun/Smoothbore. (Not smooth Rifle) at 100yds OFFHAND.

Could I do it again??? Probably never happen again just Luck!

[Brokennock]

I understand your question, don't really understand the confusion.
Basically you want to know if you can shoot a gun that has a rifle barrel without a rear sight.
I don't see why not. And choosing a fowling piece profile may work to your advantage. Cutting and shaping the stock to properly fit you, like a properly fit shotgun, will aid in this endeavor. Your biggest challenge will be to ensure that your eye, which is now your rear sight, lands in the same exact place every time you mount the gun and take a shot. A gun for to you correctly will make this much easier.
How far you can make this work for an accurate, ethical, hunting shot will be purely up to your own abilities. I know my distance vision would not allow for a 100 yard shot on a deer while shooting this way.

[Canuck Bob]

Bnock the ability to hunt is gone.  Now it is go to the range, shoot, come home.  That makes shooting a 50 and 100 meter activity.  I still practice and train like a hunter.  Group shooting is for sighting in.  Accuracy must be suitable for deer hunting and always practice a little farther than I would drop the hammer on game.  So without a rear sight looking for fun at 50 meters, simulated game range, and some practice at 100, to sharpen up for 50 meters. 

 

[Canuck Bob]

kudu, you should brag, I would be loud and proud!  Congrats!!!  Winning a 100 yd match OFFHAND is bragging rights.

The main thing that drew me to this way of life is the respect for offhand marksmanship.  Hitting a milk jug every time at 50 yds offhand is good shooting with a bp sidelock, specially a flinter.  Doing it at 100 yds is outstanding in my book. 

After receiving some honest advice I've realized that my last rifle will have a peep sight.  If it still works don't break it. 

[alacran]

I'm not willing to take the rear sight off one of my rifles to find out, but I think you would have the same trouble sighting as you would with a smoothbore. Have a friend that hunts only with a sighted smoothbore and is deadly at 100 yards with it.

[Hungry Horse]

 Hey “C” Bob, I have a O/R 30” 47 cal. Smoothbore barrel that I’m going to build a Petite Fusil for my niece out of. It came from Dixie gun works many years ago. I have mentioned this barrel in the past on this forum, and others, and have had members respond that they too bought one of these years ago. If you really want a trade gun, this might be your answer. If you shoot a smoothbore this size using the bare ball method, the undersize ball will be very near .45 cal., the gun will be light, and without the patching, even though the charge will be pretty big, the recoil will be light. I’m sure I am not the only pack rat that has one of these squirreled away. Just a thought. Good luck.

 Hungry Horse

[Canuck Bob]

Thanks HH, parallel to researching a Haines I was looking at just such a TG strategy.  Shipping cost is vicious cross border so single source makes a lot of sense.  I then decided for sure to build or buy a rifled LH flinter in 45 caliber with a peep sight.  On top of these considerations my health dictates a straight forward well prepped kit like the Chambers.  Thanks for some well considered advice.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Though I have never tried the exercise you have suggested, it is my opinion that with practice, one could shoot pretty consistently at 100 yards with a rifle without a rear sight.  I do ok with my Chambers' PA fowler out to 135 yards without rifling, and I use a patched .600" ball and 86 gr. FFg.

LB is for Leatherbelly, who died last year, may he rest in peace.  He is missed here at home, I can tell you.