Smallish Pistol Lock

[Craig Wilcox]

Having had reason over the past few days to be polishing up and browning not one, but TWO Queen Ann locks from L&R, I have been wondering if they are suitable for a pistol that will have a 3/4" ATF Octagonal to round .54 cal barrel about 11 1/2" long.  I like the look of the lock a lot.

If not, is there a suitable lock with a "waterproof" pan available?  I have a whopping big piece of nice walnut stock.  It is 2 1/8" thick - much thicker and I would slice it in half and make TWO pistols!

Appreciate any help, as I've never built a pistol from a "plank".  I do have a few nice pieces of silver hardware that I've been saving up.

[Justin Urbantas]

If you wait a few months Jim Kibler will have a waterproof pan lock ready.

[Greg Pennell]

I just picked up a couple of the Nock locks from the Rice Brothers, and a swamped .45 barrel from Charlie Burton. The Nock is a little (1/8” or so) smaller than a Chambers late Ketland.

Greg

[Craig Wilcox]

Thanks, Greg and Justin.  You both gave me some good leads.

[smart dog]

Hi Craig,
My comments are only important if you are trying to recreate a historical style. The L&R Queen Anne lock is too big for pistols.  You would be better off with Chambers small round-faced lock, which is also a much better lock.  The L&R is even larger than the round-faced military pistol locks used on British cavalry pistols.  It purports to be 1750s style but it shows 2 screws behind the flint cock because of the short sear spring that came into fashion in the 1770s.  Even the small Chambers lock gets that wrong. By the 1770s, better quality British guns used flat locks.  Round-faced locks were still used on cheap livery, trade, or military pistols.  The "water proof" pan feature on the L&R is a joke.  The lug on the bottom of the frizzen nicely draws and directs water into the pan.  Look at almost any original flintlock and you will not find lugs on the bottom of the frizzen, rather notches adjacent to the vent hole.  The reason for the notch is to avoid compressing the priming powder near the vent hole.  Loose powder ignites and burns faster.  The lug on the L&R compresses the priming all around.  On the lock I received several years ago, the lug was too deep and prevented the pan from closing.  That was fine because the first thing I did with the lock was grind off the stupid lug and file in a notch.

dave       

[henry]

I fully endorse Smart Dog's comments; there is no well proportioned pistol lock available in the US or UK. Even Kibler's new waterproof lock, when available, will be far too big, unless a giant pistol is planned. Study photos of quality originals and, by scaling from a known dimension, such as barrel length, you will soon realise that pistol locks were small compared to rifle or shotgun locks.

[alacran]

You are going to build a .54 cal pistol that is just 3/4 inch across the flats?

[blienemann]

The lock first made by Ron Long, then several others and now by R E Davis and the Hawken Shop might fit your project.  I think H House, Stephan Davis and others used this lock for years on pistols and small squirrel rifles.  Here are a few from the Alamo movie.  Bob

[Craig Wilcox]

Dave and Henry, I will get in touch with Chambers about their small, R F lock - sounds good.

Alacran, it is actually 15/16".  Measured it late last night, but it grew up a bit while I was sleeping.

B. Lineman, I do appreciate the thought, but like the looks of a RF lock on this pistol.

And Dave, I do believe that I will take the lug off those two locks.  They are on a pair of 20-bore flinters very recently acquired.

[alacran]

Do not overlook L&Rs Bailes lock it is much slimmer and more proportionate than he other locks that have been mentioned.

[smart dog]

Hi,
For me, a key problem with the Bailes or baby Manton lock from L&R is the curve of the bottom of the plate.  That curve makes for very awkward and clumsy looking pistols. 

dave

[Craig Wilcox]

Dave, I agree about the curve - doesn't quite seem right.

Started filing those logs, as I don't have a grinder.  On both frizzens, the portion of the lug closest to the frizzen face is harder than the file!  I put a stone in the Fordom, and managed to bring it down a little - gonna take a while, for sure!  I am not that great at heat treating any more, no longer have the oxy-acetylene torches.

[alacran]

Clumsy looking like this?

[henry]

Clumsy looking---sorry, yes. The lock length has put the architecture out of joint.

[smart dog]

Hi,
That is a handsome pistol, Alacran, but I agree with what Henry said and the front of the lock looks tipped downward because of the curve on the bottom so that the apron running around the front almost forms a bulge on the bottom. Of course much depends on the style you are creating but to my eyes, the curve on the bottom of the lock presents design problems.  I believe the pistols below with locks 4.125" long and copied from an original pair of Wogdons illustrate much of what Henry suggested.  The straight bottom on the lock keeps the fore stocks nice and trim, and the short length allows the top to curve downward right from the breech rather than protrude more straight backward before arcing down.

[alacran]

I believe if you are making an early 19th century English style pistol, you have a point. If you are making a Kentucky style pistol,not so much. There is no commonality of style with Kentucky pistols. This gun was purpose built as Kentucky pistol for NMLRA Kentucky pistol rules parameters. I recently finished  a flintlock version though not identical it is very close. I will post pictures soon.
 In R.L Wilsons Steel Canvas, there is a photo of Simeon North presentation pistol, with a very similar lock when it comes to the bottom of the lock. It is a copyrighted  image so I did not post it. That pistol is considered a state treasure. Interestingly there is a pistol on the opposite page that was made by Haslett which has a lock very much like the one you posted. Haslett was trained by an Irish gunsmith so he built pistols in the English style.

[Bob Roller]

Many moons ago I made two small pocket pistol locks from external parts
of a Fenton flint lock as sold by TRS,One circulated around as an item of
trade and barter for a while and the other was used on a build of some kind.
Both were a pain in the rump to make and I'd never consider another one.
Lynton McKenzie and Steve Alexander(I think}made a copy target rifle that was
16 bore for a man in California years ago.They made the lock from TRS externals
and agreed the available internals were a hopeless case.
I may still have patterns here for a little caplock and I offered to make some but
no interest was shown except for one man who made a child's rifle for his daughter.
My deteriorated skill level would prevent a revival of any dinky lock so I will close
with that,
Bob Roller

[Kevin Houlihan]

Greg,
 Where did you pick up the lock?  I thought they were going to be sold through TVM, but I couldn't find the locks on their website.
Thanks,
Kevin

[smart dog]

Hi Alacran,
As I wrote in my previous post, much depends on the style pistol you are making.  I said nothing about historical correctness.  I only provided Craig with my opinion that I don't like the Bailes lock for pistols, any style of pistols, and I described the reasons why I have that opinion.  There are many historically correct styles of guns that don't appeal to me very much, even English ones.  On page 81 of Norman Dixon's "Georgian Pistols" is a Henry Nock saw handled dueling pistol that uses a lock very much like the Bailes.  The lock has the same tipped forward appearance that creates an awkward look to the stock.  Old Henry recognized that too because he made the flat around the lock get thinner on the bottom at the nose so the lock panel didn't create a bulge on the bottom below the front of the lock. 

dave         

[Craig Wilcox]

 I bought a pair of 20-bores from a fellow.  One is a "smooth rifle" according to the builder, but has no rear sight, which I consider the difference between a fowling piece and a smooth-rifle.

When I started building muzzle loaders, I asked Bob Roller for some advice on what to smooth and polish on a lock - he told me to polish EVERYTHING, front and back.  So that is what I do with any lock I come across.  These locks still had the casting gates on the cock top-plate, and were very un-finished.  So, adhering to Mr. Roller's advice, everything got polished.  And nicely browned with many layers of LMF.  And lots of 0000 steel wool!

They look really nice, and the first one is back in the stock, ready to spark some fires in the tubes.  Got no fingerprints left tho - all the grades of silicon carbide paper from 220 up to 800 will do that.

I really do like the look of the Queen Ann locks, and I have a nice pistol barrel - so, hunting for a smaller version of that lock.  And I did take the "lug" off the bottom of the frizzen on the first lock, the second really needs to be annealed because the file just skates over the lug on the second one.  But I am not good with hardening, so I plan to just let it be for now.

Used mink oil on a toothpick to lube the lock, as I kinda ran out of bear oil a friend had sent me.  Hey, it's waterprooof, anyway!