.58 Hawken Loads, velocities, targets

[Herb]

Here is a .58 Hawken I've tuned up for a trophy elk hunt.  Barrel by Bill Large, 1 1/16 by 35" bore, hooked breech adds another inch, straight, 1 in 48 twist.  Lock is marked Roller 66 inside and ORE TERR IKE BAY on the outside, and on the barrel.  Presume he made it.  The rifle weighs 12.5 pounds.  The owner drew a Boulder Mountain elk tag after 14 years of applying.  I shot .570 Hornadys (.562s were too loose, even with tight patching), CCI 11 caps, .015 OxYoke patches and wool over powder wads for heavier charges.  I first used 1978 Moosic, PA Goex 2F with 80, 90, 100, 110 and 120 grains.  Ran out and used 2005 Minden, LA Goex 2F with 120, 130 and 140 grains, checking it against Lyman's 2nd edition loading handbook.  Also Swiss 1 1/2 and Swiss 2.  No wiping between shots and only cleaned at the end of the day.

All loads below 110 grains seated easily, 110 grains I could feel fouling, 120 was more,which an over powder wad cured.

[ottawa]

whats the range? looks like shes in there. will the cliant be useing the same type of powder ? or dose that matter?

[northmn]

A 58 pushing 1800 is nothing to be sneezed at.  Interesting data. I have used 575 cast in two of my 58's and still used a fairly heavy patch.  Might be why you were getting some fouling at 120 as that is not really a heavy load for a 58.

DP

[Daryl]

Good going Herb - a tighter combination might have had the 140gr. charges shooting with the 130gr. one.  Of course, 1 group can't be relied upon and further testing is required.  I've not have any luck at all with .015" patches, except in my .58 which has a .574" bore & only .003" for rifling at the muzzle & then only with 75gr. of 2F  for 1,300fps. I was using a .575" ball. Same goes for the .40, with a .398" bore and a .400" ball with light and heavy loads.  In that .58, I experimented with double patching using .017" denim with the .562's and they worked well. I picked up all those patches, and used them for the trail the next week. They were still in shootable condition after being fired twice - only needing more lube.
With .005" to .010" smaller balls in all the guns and barrels I've tested, I needed .0215" to .022" of patching to get a seal and prevent cutting or burnouts with all loads. The starting to burnout at 110gr. with a single patch and no wad shows the patches are a bit thin, even at that lower pressure. Increasing the loads puts additional stress on the patch.  I was able to load a .562" ball with accuracy in my tight .58 with 48" twist when using a .025" patch. I use a mic. for measuring as those same patches run .030" with calipers.
I am assuming the shooting is at 50 yards.

[Herb]

Yes, these were at 50 yards from rest.  Cranked them out with no cleaning between powder changes, except before Triple 7, if I remember right.  I don't know what powder or charge the owner will use, so I tested a variety.  I used 100 grains of Triple 7 2F, 140 grains of Pyrodex RS (two lots) and 120 grains of Pyrodex Select (RS).  The Pyrodex cans were at least 15 years old.  Pyrodex and Triple 7 need heavy patches, the .015 OxYoke  burned even with the wool OPW.   I did not wipe between shots, but the Swiss 1 1/2 fouled the bore for the first four to six inches at the breech, making loading hard.  Swiss 2 wasn't so bad.  The rifle is zeroed at 50 yards and I shot one group at 100 yards for drop.

[Herb]

Here is a graph of the charges and velocities from Lyman's "Black Powder Handbook & Loading Manual", 2nd edition.  They used a 32" barrel, 1 in 48 twist, Goex 2F (and others), musket caps, .570 balls and prelubed .010 OxYoke patches (!).  My data compares well with theirs, the Louisiana Goex, Pyrodex RS and Pyrodex Select.  There is no published loading data for Swiss powders.  I called them a couple of years ago and they said they did not furnish loading data.  Also there is no published data for Triple 7 in a .58 caliber.  My data points are circled and the dashed lines indicate probable velocities with other loads.

[Daryl]

I tried T-7 in the .58 as well as the .69 as I had a couple pounds of it from a number of years ago.  In the .58, it worked OK, but showed slightly poorer accuracy than the GOEX 2F I normally use with lighter 75gr. charges - at 50 yards.  I didn't try it farther out. Fouling wasn't a problem, about the same as GOEX 2F - no buildup at all so it's hard to say which is better in that regard.

 In the .69, T-7 was vastly inferior in accuracy, with wild shots, even at 50 yards, however there were no high pressure indications on the patches and all were reusable, as normal by merely re-lubing them. I found the T-7 to shoot roughly 3feet high and 3feet to the left at 100 meters off the bags, while the real BP shot into the target's centre as is normal with GOEX 2F.  This, I found most interesting & subsequently stopped using T-7. Your rifle seems to respond to it quite well - guess that proves all guns are unto themselves and wil show us what they want.  Note the roughly 200fps higher velocity with T-7 over GOEX or Swiss - higher pressure gives higher velocities.

I've read that in some guns, T-7 gives pressure excursions in heavy loads. I can bleieve it.  I know of a couple guys who are using 175gr. T-7 in their 12 bore Pedersoli double rifles - something I'd not want to do with their gun designs.

[T*O*F]

I found the T-7 to shoot roughly 3feet high and 3feet to the left at 100 meters off the bags, while the real BP shot into the target's centre as is normal with GOEX 2F.

Daryl,
Explain that!!  I can understand how it would shoot higher or lower based on velocity, but not that much lateral dispersion unless it were blowing patches or some other mystery.

[Roger Fisher]

Jeez Herb: You gave this 77 yr old something to study awhile -  Thanks!

[Daryl]

Can't explain it, TOF - the patches didn't blow, yet the T-7 was terrifically random in impact. The 'group' of 2 shots was about a foot in diameter, but way off from the sights as indicated. I immediately went out and collected the patches which were just fine.  I used the .684" ball and the .022" patches- tight, but still fairly easy loading - as usual.  I've shot up to 225gr. of 2F from this rifle without patch trouble and with the same accuracy as the 'hunting&accuracy' load of 165gr. 2F.
.684" ball + .022 = .022 = .728" in a .714" groove diameter for .007" compresion per side.  The rifle also shoots well with the .684" ball and .025" patch which I also use with the 15 bore ball of .677".  They are all re-usable.

[Herb]

Roger, you are an old timer.  I'm only 76 1/2.

[northmn]

I had similar results with my 50 percussion and Pyrodex except that I really could not  get much of a group to determine where it shot at 100 yards.  With 90 grains of 3f it shot very well.  I think it may have been that the #11 caps were too inconsistant with the phoney powder as I also noticed ignition differences.

DP

[Herb]

Here is a .58 fullstock flinter I built with a Green River barrel, 1 x 36".  Larry here bought it and is taking it to Montana on a guided elk and mule deer hunt this fall.  He says he is recoil sensitive, but got up to 100 grains of Goex 2F.  He used .015 CVA precut pillow ticking, lubed with October Country Thunder-something- which worked good.  The first few shots blew the patches so we used over powder wads from then on, worked great, only two more torn patches. He shot at 50 yards rest, and after a few shots tapped the front sight over.  Too much.  Shot 9 shots with no wiping, got interrupted for an hour and so wiped with one wet and one dry patch (using  the OCT).  I shot the middle target, but don't see the sights the same as he does- he's an eye doctor!  Second session, 18 shots with no wiping, he said it still loaded easily.  Later flyers are either torn patches or he called them out.  He wants a two inch high zero at 50 yards.  Still fine tuning the sights.

[Herb]

Larry is getting about 1500 fps with that 100 grain load.  With a 50 yard zero, the trajectory would be as below.  If he hits 2 inches high at 50 yards, that raises the impact four inches at 100 yards, or still 1.6 inches low there.  If he went to 1800 fps, the bullet path would flatten by six inches at 150 yards, should he have to shoot that far.  And if he zeroed at 100 yards, he'd have the top trajectory, which I think would be better.

If he wanted to, this is how to calculate how much to cut down the front sight (rear is fixed).  Sight radius (front to rear) is 26". Convert 100 yards to inches, 100 yards times 3 feet times 12 inches, equals 3600 inches.  Then, 3 inches (desired raise) is to 3600 inches (zero distance) as an unknown front sight cut-down (to raise muzzle) is to 26 inches.  In algebra, 3 is to 3600 as X is to 26.   3 times 26 equals 3600 times X.    Thus 78 equals 3600 X.  Divide both sides by 3600, so 78/3600 equals X, the amount of sight cut-down, which divides to be about .022 inch, about half the thickness of a dime.  You math whizzes, if I made any mistakes, please correct me.