Length of Pull, and modifying stock profile

[Chowmi]

I have a conundrum here, and need advice.   
I'm about to build a rifle for a friend, based on an original I own.  So I plan to use the stock profile of the original, which has a 13" LOP.
My friend shouldered the original rifle and thought the butt stock was too short, which surprised me because it fits me great, and he and I are the same height, about 5' 8". 
I took a measurement of his arm, crook of the elbow to curled finger and it came out to 14".  Surprise!  That would indicate (from what I have read) a 14" LOP.   My understanding is that almost zero of original long rifles have a 14" LOP.  Now, I understand that average height was lower in 1800 than now, but we are both 5' 8",  not exactly tall...

I think it would be quite easy to extend the LOP to 13.5", but more than that would throw some curveballs in the comb, wrist, etc etc. 

Added to that, I'm almost certain that he and I will take it to the range and shoot it once, then it will hang on the wall. 

What say you?

Norm

[Stophel]

I say whoever came up with the idea that you should measure pull length to the inside of your elbow should be thrown in stocks and pilloried.

[Marcruger]

My opinion is that unless it is a shotgun, it is easy to shoot a short LOP, but hard to shoot one made too long.

Have you had the gent shoot it with a winter coat?  That certainly changes the LOP. 

I hope this helps.  God bless, Marc

[Elnathan]

Something to think about, rather than a direct answer (because I don't think I am qualified to give one):

I think length of pull is as much a function of shooting style and personal preference as the size of the shooter. The trend in modern combat firearms is towards a shorter LOP than 20 years ago, because the accepted stance has changed from one with the left shoulder pointed towards the target to one more square to the line of fire, plus the added bulk of body armor. I think that there must have been something similar going on 200 years ago with the change from a relatively flat buttplate and short pull to the more curved buttplates and somewhat longer pulls (I think) - the earlier guns were intended to be held somewhat differently from what we expect today.

I don't believe that people in the 18th century were all that shorter than we are today. Americans were usually considered to be tall and lean/wiry, as a matter of fact, the result of good nutrition, including much protein, and a lot of outdoor activity - Uncle Sam is pictured tall and skinny to this day because that was the way "Brother Jonathan," the British caricature of the average American of the 18th and 19th century, was pictured. So I don't believe that those old rifles were made for midgets, but for people who 1) wore heavier cloths on average than we do today, and 2) preferred a shooting style that differed in some way from our own.

[Mike Brooks]

I took a measurement of his arm, crook of the elbow to curled finger and it came out to 14".  Surprise!  That would indicate (from what I have read) a 14" LOP.   My understanding is that almost zero of original long rifles have a 14" LOP.  Now, I understand that average height was lower in 1800 than now, but we are both 5' 8",  not exactly tall...

That measurement on me is 15". I can't even reach a trigger at 15". I used to be 6' tall...closer to 5'10 1/2 now. I can shoot rifles comfortably with a pull from 11.5" to 13 3/4" . Shotguns are comfortable from 13 3/4" to 14".
 I have built rifle with pulls as long as 17"! One thing that helps when you have to stretch them out is using a tall buttplate, tends to help them not look so long and skinny in the buttstock.
 This could be because he's used to shooting modern guns which all tend to be too long. Let him shoot one of your 13" guns for a while and see how he likes it after a while.

[Top Jaw]

13 1/2” seems like a good compromise.  Let him know that most of the better Historically correct “kits” (depending on timeframe) are less than 14”. 

[Herb]

This Length of Pull is a head thing.  He thinks longer is better.........  You know what he will think if he shoots it, so let him win, make it 13.5".  There were some good answers here.

[jrb]

What's with the Type G  , "TR" English Carolina trade gun with it's roughly, 11 1/2" pull ? is that even possible?

[wmrike]

The primary purpose of LOP is to keep the thumb out of one's nose; in that regard it only needs to be long enough to serve that purpose.  One thing that's not been mentioned here is neck length and the location of the leading edge of the comb as it impacts on hand position.  Rather than rely solely on formulas and advice, your friend would be well served to step back and, tape in hand, sample some guns to see what elements combine to a best feel.

[Mike Brooks]

What's with the Type G  , "TR" English Carolina trade gun with it's roughly, 11 1/2" pull ? is that even possible?

Lots of old guns that short.

[Cossack]

David Crockett's famous York rifle, built sometime just before the turn of the 18th-19th C., has a LOP of just over 14". So while a longer LOP is certainly uncommon on Flint period guns, it's not unheard of.

[Stophel]

I'm 6'2", with a 38" sleeve (of course, I can't actually get sleeves that long...).  If I did the to-the-elbow measurement, I'd have a 16" pull length.... no.  For me, 13 1/2" to 13 3/4" is good.  I can handle them shorter without too much difficulty or discomfort.  Much longer than that and they simply hang up in my armpit.  I shoot a rifle like a rifle.  I'm not a shotgunner at all, so I don't do the stretch out forward and lean into it thing.  Apparently pull lengths are supposed to be longer for that, but still... no way I could do that with a 16" pull...

I don't know what modern guns people seem to think they are used to with much longer pull lengths... 13 1/2" seems to be pretty well average (and also pretty well max) for any modern gun I've ever handled.   

[Stophel]

Just measured my meager collection of old guns.  1720's or so German bird gun (about .50, perhaps a boy's gun): 13" pull length... and handles beautifully.  1760's half stock fowling gun that I think is Belgian, or perhaps German: 13 1/2".  Massachusetts rifle from around 1820: 13 3/4".

[Chowmi]

Thanks guys for all the replies! 
I’ll go with 13.5.
To be fair to my friend, he didn’t ask for 14 LOP, he just thought my original was a bit short.
I measured his arm thinking that was the right answer, and was surprised it came out to 14, which didn’t seem like the right answer. Now I know that it’s not a good way to determine LOP! 
He’s not a shooter, just wants a nice rifle to hang on the wall.

Norm.

[T*O*F]

We've been thru this before.  LOP doesn't mean a thing.  That's why they had "try guns."  When the gun is brought to shoulder, your cheek should be on the cheekpiece and your eye should be looking straight down the sights.  If that's not the case, the gun will either be tilted up or down and you will have to scrunch to bring it on target.

Much of this depends on your body build.  Stophel says he 6'2" with a 38' sleeve and 13-1/2 works for him.  I'm 6' with a 42 long sleeve and an 18" neck.  No way can I shoulder a gun that short.  This probably means he has a wide body with some meat on it, whereas I'm narrower and have a long neck as well as long arms.

Chunky guys have more padding in their upper body and their neck usually sits right on their shoulders, whereas a skinny guy is leaner with a longer neck.  To do it right, you build the gun to the body, not to some random LOP because it's only part of the equation.

In other words, a string bean won't shoot the same gun as a fire plug.

[Daryl]

I can easily shoot rifles from 12" LOP to 14" LOP - it's all a matter of where you put your shoulder. People who say they HAVE to have a exact pull length, for example, 14 1/2" pull, or 13 7/8", or 13 1/4" usually are not proficient rifle shooters, ie: lacking experience.
Someone who shoots a lot, usually has a much wider range or preferences or capabilities and a lot of that comes from different stock styling.

[Cossack]

I never used to worry about LOP. In modern guns I'd shoot long and short stocks and never worry much about it.

This past fall that changed. I got a .50 caliber early VA style rifle made by Terry Briggs. Gorgeous gun. It had about 13 1/4 LOP. I couldn't squeeze my face down to the sights without great effort, and once I did, the gun would punch me smartly in the cheekbone. It was a lovely gun to behold, but no fun to shoot, so off it went. Since then, I've been very wary of shorter LOPs. My other flint rifles have all been in the 14" ballpark, and that has been comfortable and I get right on the sights.

However, I've been learning that my problem was more an issue of not enough drop in the comb line of the stock than length of pull - as T*O*F was saying in the 1st paragraph of his response (#14). So I guess my point is that there's a lot more that goes into a well or poorly fitting stock than just LOP. Maybe find a gun that does fit your friend well and look at what's going on with the stock geometry. You might not need to add much to the LOP to make him happy if you can add a little more drop or something like that.

[oldwood]

              How to make a m/l rifle "fit" the operator??? 
   1.  Loosely Measure the length of pull...1st joint of trigger finger to face of the large muscle  above crook of the elbow.  If the shooter  will  only be using  the rifle in warm weather  , thin clothing, deduct 1/4 inch from the lop in the first sentence. If using the rifle in thick coat weather , deduct 3/8" to 1/2 inch.
    2.  If using a pre-shaped stock , install the barrel , lock , and trigger. Hold the butt plate @ the measured  length of pull , adding the thickness of the plate and mark approximate
butt plate position once inletted.
     3.To adjust the height of the comb .  Once the butt plate  shape is cut into the butt stock , and before the sights are installed in the top of the barrel , look down the length of the top of the barrel and see if you can comfortably see the entire length of the top of the barrel , again w/o sights installed. Remove wood from the top and side of the comb until the entire top of the barrel is visible. You should be close to where the rifle stock  will fit.
       I've used this procedure for 58 years . It works unfailingly for me. Hope these thoughts help someone.    I can't shoot a rifle that's too long  , but usually can shoot one slightly too short.   Oldwood

[Daryl]

From what I've learned over the years of shooting, measuring from the trigger finger to the crook of the elbow tells you
exactly that and no more - exactly what that measurement is. That's it. Yippee., now you know how exactly far it is from your crooked finger
to the crook of the elbow.
Do you shoot crawling the forend until your thumb is stuck up your nose like the military show in the demos, then you need a longer stock.
Do you shoot standing straight, lifting the gun to your shoulder & face elbow high (most ML's are stocked for this), you will need a shorter LOP.
Those who do a lot of shooting, can get by with a wide variety of lop's, and shoot well with all of them.

[Nazgul]

Fitting a rifle to the individual is a combination of several factors as already stated.

I have a custom 54 cal. Hawken/Plains style rifle that was in the rack at a gunshow. Didn't plan on spending money, but made the mistake of picking it up. I am 6' and big. It fit perfectly, sights lined up immediately. Tried it several times with the same result. It shoots very well for me offhand, rested, whatever position used.

Measured the cast off and found it 1/4", have not measured any other parameter. It would be nice to replicate this on any other rifle I own.
All the measurements just came together well.

Don