Smallbores challenges...

[northmn]

Got sidetracked sorry.  One of my peeves with small bore BP barrels are that they are made in a very slow twist.  1-48 is really very slow for a 32 as the effect of the twist is really the angle of the twist not the rate per feet.  consider that my 25 has a 1-48.  The angle is equal to a 1-96 in a 50.  Most people shooting a 25 are using darn near equal weight powder to lead to get accuracy.  Even the more common smallbores, the 30-36 tend to need a hot load to be real accurate.  My 32 liked at least 20 grains and usually 25 grains of 3f to really shoot and the difference in accuracy was noticeable.  I have not tried a 36 but I have used 40's and 32's, but even the 40 seems to be a little more touchy than the big bores.  On paper it may not make much difference, but on small game they hit about like a 22 mag HP.  I still think the real slow twists may have something to do with the flyer's you were talking about as 1-70 seems to be about the max for bigger bores.  A 32 with 1-48 is equal to a 50 with a 1-75 inch twist.  Larger bores also tend to be more accurate with less powder/ball weight ratios.

DP

[hanshi]

I agree.  My .32 does it's best work with 30 grains of 3f.  My .36 likes the same load.  I'm still working with my .40.  I'm not so sure, however, that powder charge vs twist rate is necessarily the culprit.  If that were the case I'd think general inaccuracy would be the problem, not random flyers.  Flyers point toward some sort of inconsistency in powder charge, patching, lube, shooting technique, etc.  I frequently experience flyers when shooting off the bench but rarely from unsupported hunting positions.  This problem has only occurred with longrifles, though.  Shorter half stock & cap lock military rifles aren't affected.

[northmn]

While one could wonder about barrel whip with a longer barrel, some of the larger bores are pretty stable.  Hot charges coupled with less mass per diameter to me, likely explains the flyers.  30 grains of 3f in a 32 is about like using 100-110 grains of powder in a 50, where most target shooters talk about getting best accuracy with about 70 grains or so.  The slow twist may indirectly affect the groups because they do seem to ask for heavy loads.  Most target loads are relatively moderate charges.

Northmn

[Dphariss]

Small bores use the powder far less efficiently.
32 percent of the ball weight in my 16 bore rifle with a 437 gr ball gives 1600 fps.
32 percent of the ball weight in a 32 caliber is about 16 grains. This is really not a usable load unless the range is very short. I used to shoot rabbits in the grove behind the barn in Iowa and used a 9mm Luger case full of powder, supposedly 15 grains. It was almost a squib load but worked a the ranges involved sometimes 10-15 feet.

Dan

[northmn]

A 36 with 25 grains, about 35%,  is listed at about 1350 fps.  A 32 with 16 would likely give over 1000 fps, which if accurate would be a very usable load out to 25 yards for small game as it would be in the neighborhood of a 22LR.  Problem is that that that load is not generally particularly accurate.  When using a small game, or small bore, one generally is looking at headshots.  A 22 short will take almost all small game with a head shot and has been known to even take larger game.  A squirrel head is not much of a target.  How accurate are most 36's with 25 grains?  My 40 did not start shooting until about 40 grains?   Actually, 25 yards may be a fairly long shot at some small game.

DP

[Daryl]

My .32 is on the way - will be interesting to play with it - don't know what the twist is - don't care at this point.

[hanshi]

My .32 is on the way - will be interesting to play with it - don't know what the twist is - don't care at this point.

Me neither.  I bought a Traditions Crockett back when they were inexpensive.  That little rifle loves 30 grains 3f and 20 grains 3f.  It's a squirrel shooting fool!  Whatever the twist is, it's the correct one!  Could be smooth for all I know.

[northmn]

32's are fun.  I think my problem with them came when I was a match shooter and was searching for the smallest caliber that would perform in the matches I shot.  They worked great on small game but were a little powerful, but you head shoot anyway.  Daryl should enjoy one on his gopher shoots.  Out to 50 yards they worked OK on targets.  You still may have some of the problems Skychief was mentioning about an occaisional flyer.  I sometimes wonder if bigbores don't seem more accurate because of the size holes they blow.  A group with all holes touching, or the "ragged hole" may not do that with a small bore.

DP

[Daryl]

DP - big ball groups with 1/2" between centres hole to hole still makes a single hole in the target for the group and looks like a small group, but if there is a 1/2" between centres hole to hole in a .32's group, the group looks huge.  Along with perceptions and to show the same perspective, I've a couple .375" 5 shot groups shot at 100 meters with a .17CF gopher rifle, that has paper between each of the 5 holes in the group. The group looks larger than the measurement suggests.  A .224 cal. will only give a single small hole, for that 3/8" group.

[Mike R]

I think most .32 barrels are 1:48 twist.  Mine is and I shoot 24 gr fffg [the amount it takes to fill up an empty .38 spec case] with a .310 ball, which is about = weight to a .22LR bullet. Perfect squirrel rifle IMHO. 

[willyr]

We might as well beat this dead horse some more. I am a very young 64 years of age and have been shooting smallbore muzzleloaders most of my adult life; shooting in competition and hunting- primarily squirrels and deer. I have never- read that NEVER- been able to get acceptable accuracy with any round ball much smaller than bore diameter using patching from .015 to .020 thick. I'm talking .395 or .400 rb in a .40 caliber, .380 in a .38 caliber, .360 in a .36 caliber, .350 in a Numrich barrel (they called it a .36 caliber, but the bore was .347), .323 in a .32 caliber. If you don't think a .32 caliber will shoot at 100 yards, then I will challenge you to try the tighter ball and a 50 grain powder charge. you still have to watch the wind, but you have to do that with any caliber at 100 yards.
     All the loads i mentioned require the use of a short starter, but once the ball is short started, it loads easily enough. When I am target shooting, I use soapy water in a spray bottle for patch lube. For a hunting patch lube, I use olive oil. I wet the patching material with oil, let it soak in, then pat it down with paper towels.
    Works for me.
Be Well,
Bill Ridout

[Daryl]

Good to see your post, willyr - we've been preaching this for many years and other than old Roger, those who like tight fitting combinatons are few and far between - DP does as well, as do some of the other 'regular' shooters.  Mostly, you'll find the tight combination shooters involved in some of the more refined accuracy games like bench shooting or chunk or merely those who work up to the best load their rifles will shoot - beyond 40 yards.  Those who shoot closer than 50 yards mostly use the easy loading thin patches and small balls.

[willyr]

Daryl: My first .32 caliber rifle had a Douglas barrel and it liked the .323 RB with the .017 patching. I used 30 grains fffg at 25 & 50 yards and for squirrel hunting, 50 grains fffg for 100 yd. shooting-same point of aim. When I got my first .32 with a Green mountain barrel, I tried the same load and it did not work. Over the next few months I tried everything from .310 balls to the .323 balls with from 15 to 50 grains fffg- nothing worked as good as the old douglas barrel. One day completely by accident I tried 35 grains ffg with the .323 ball and that was it. a .40 caliber one hole group at 25 yds. from the bench. Point is- every barrel is an individual and a load must be developed for it. I have never seen the need for being able to "thumb start" a ball/patch and while a short starter might not be HC, I do use one. I have fired up to twelve shots loading from a loading block with a short starter while squirrel hunting with the olive oil patches with no difficulty loading. When you are using that tight a load, you are never more than one shot dirty.
Be Well,
Bill Ridout

[Daryl]

Spot-on, Bill. After shooting for the day, I sometimes drop in 20gr. of powder, 2F or 3F and the normal tight ball/patch combinations I shoot with a vert wet patch.  Loading that squib load pushes all the fouling that has been accumulating in the breech, down on top of the powder, then blows it out when you fire it, quite effectively cleaning the 'powder chamber' aread, leaving only that one squib load's fouling. When subsequently cleaning the rifle, the water barely gets discoloured.

[Curtis]

Anybody ever shoot a 30 caliber?  I recently purchased a shootable original caplock in .30 and would like to know of any good statring loads for the .30....  I would assume that .32 loads would be reasonably close but any hands on input from experience would be MOST welcome.  I would like to use it for squirrel hunting and plinking, same load for both.  I ordered some .283 and some .300 balls today in hopes that one of those will fit/perform well.  Not much else available out there as far as I can find....

[northmn]

About any fo the smallbores seem to need a fairly hot load to shoot.  As to loading any ML for accuracy, I have found a short started load to be the best.  "Fast" reloading when using a ML is kind of an oxymoron.  Small bores are a lot of fun.  I have used them at the primitive or luck shoots to give larger bore shooters fits especially if you split a card with one.  Most of these matches are 25 yard and some 50 yard stuff.  40's have gotten pretty popular I see and some chunk shooters like them at the 60 events.  They will do as well as anything in the closer range bullseye events for 5 shot total score.  They may shoot as well as a larger bore at 100 yards or so on a still day, but over time a larger bore will win more matches at these ranges.  One very good shot I knew switched from a 45 to a 54 and felt is was more "stable".  when you start shooting off X-sticks or other type events, the bigger bores will buck lighter winds better.  I got a third place in a bench rest match using a 58 in a N Dakota shoot on a day when a 32 would not have hit the paper.  It was pretty gusty. 

DP

[Daryl]

SquirrelHeart - as with any ML, slug the bore if possible - if not, then pick a descent ball diameter and strip of patch material.  Lay the material over the bore and punch it down into the bore 1/2" below the crown, then pull it out with the 'tags' of cloth. Check the ball's sides for markings, light from the groove and heavy from the lands. This is how I determine if the patch will seal that particular ball.  If there are markings only form the lands, the combination is usually too loose and the patches will burn out giving poor accuracy and dirty shooting with fouling buildup. Test a thicker patch or larger ball and try again.

As to loads, normal stuff for any gun. In the little ones around .30 cal., start at 20gr. and go up in 5 gr. increments - so, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 - maybe even 45, but not likely you'll have to go that high.  In those 5 loads, you should find the best one.  Due to the small bore, further finetuning might be necessary - like 1/2 way between 30 and 35 = 32 or 33 maybe, maybe not. Larger bores will show slight difference in 5 gr. increments, so small bores should show similar change with smaller charge differences.

Range is another consideration- what range are you shooting - 20 or 25 yards, 30 or 40? The longer the range, the 'better' must be your load. By 'better' I mean the load must be more highly refined in the accuracy department for that particular rifle to be accurate.  Most rifles will shoot into tiny groups at close range- 20 to 25 yards, yet that same load might shoot pie plates at double that range - testing and experimentation is needed to find the 'best' load.

Your .30 will probably shoot best in the 30 to 40gr. range.  if you are getting fouling buildup, go to a thicker patch, better or more lube.  Ordinary spit is one of the best patch lubes there is - it works in ever muzzleloading rifle I've ever shot - patch must be saturated with spit - simple loading and shooting. Wiping at any time should not be needed - if it is, look to your patch material, thickness, ball diameter or lube type and quantity.

[Curtis]

Daryl, thanks for the tips and info.  I have some cerrosafe and will try to make a casting of the bore to mike when I get the chance.  The .283 and .300 cast lead balls I ordered came in the mail last night, the .300 ball sit on the muzzle just about on their "equator" and may work well, the .283 balls just barely roll down the bore and will probably work fine if I find the right patch to compliment them.  I'll try the trick of punching the ball on a strip of patching material down the bore and looking at the marks left on the ball - I assume the patch material should be well lubed when I do this?

As for the range the rifle will be shot at - I plan on squirrel hunting with it so it will be shot from 15 to 45 yards or so.  I'll work up a load on the range that shoot well at least out to 50 yards and go from there.

[Daryl]

Good stuff, SquirrelHeart - as to the cerosafe, be careful.  You should be able to run a wire into a wad of cloth, then push than in, heat the barrel a bit, cast down to the patch, then 1/2 hour later, pull it out.  Don't wait longer, as after an hour, the cerosafe expands and become tight.  You can always heat it with a torch or hot air gun and let it run out, muzzle down, if gets stuck.  Timing is important.  The block of Cerosafe I bought didn't have instructions with it, but I think that's the scenario.