Original LOP

[hanshi]

I don't recall this question being asked or answered previously, but here it goes.  I'm pretty short and do better with lop of about 13" with a 12.5" lop being perfect without wearing a jacket.  Any consensus on the typical lop on rifles in the late 18th century?   

[Mike Brooks]

I would say "generally" shorter. I can handle a 13" pull easily and I'm 6'. Anything over 14" for me and it's too much of a reach. I would say we "generally" shoot guns with too long of pull these days.

[JTR]

From a couple originals at hand;
An S. Miller, single trigger, 13 1/4"
A Leman half stock factory gun, 13 1/4" to front trigger.
A Fredrick Sell, single trigger, 13 1/2"
A SMR, to front trigger, 14"

[Stoner creek]

I just posted a gun on the antique forum here. It dates to the mid 18th century. 13 1/2” trigger pull!!

[Feltwad]

I have found that the  LOP in guns over 150 to 200 years is mainly due that the average man was not has tall has today .Most of my early flintlocks have a LOP of 13 to 13.1/2 inches pull ,this seemed to change in the late percussion period to a average 14 inches which is more  standard today. Personally I shoot guns with a pull of 14 inches  I have found that anything shorter I end with a burst nose  from my thumb .
Feltwad

[hanshi]

yeah, mine range from 12.5" to 13" and I can handle them all; but much over 13" can give me problems.  I've had to get rid of a few modern guns because I couldn't get close enough to the scope to see through it.

[Carney Pace]

Do mot put your thumb over the wrist. 2 things happen ---you get hit in the nose and you "milk the stock"--pulling your muzzle into  the direction of your palm.

Set up a at a good solid bench with a target .22 rifle at 50 yards.  Shoot  5 shot groups for size with your thumb across the stock. Then repeat with your thumb beside the stock.  You will be surprised at what it will show.

Carney

[WKevinD]

I have found that the  LOP in guns over 150 to 200 years is mainly due that the average man was not has tall has today ....
Feltwad

This is something I've seen when viewing museum collections that display uniforms or clothing. Not only were people shorter they were smaller in overall stature. There were exceptions but the general impression is that those short pull guns were made to fit a population that were generally not as obese or tall as today.
Kevin

[Elnathan]

Americans of the period were notoriously tall and thin, though, the result of a majority rural population with a good childhood diet and a lot of outdoor exercise. That is the reason why Brother Jonathan, and later Uncle Sam, are shaped the way they are.

I think the change in stock dimensions has more to do with the way they were meant to be held than the size of the people.

[Hlbly]

14 inches.

[Dennis Glazener]

LOP 14 1/4"

[Herb]

Here are some Hawken dimensions.  Jim Bridger was over six feet tall and his rifle (I measured it at Helena, MT) has a barrel 33.25" ahead of the snail, 1.175 across the flats (ATF) there to 1.125 at the muzzle.  Length of pull (LOP) is 13.5 inches.  Weight 11 1/4 pounds.

 Kit Carson was 5.2" and his rifle has a LOP of 13.25".

 Liver Eating Johnson was 6'2", 260 pounds, and his rifle (measured by me at the Cody Firearms Museum) has a 31.75" barrel, 1.3 to 1.218 (heavy, and .54 caliber as I measured it- the muzzle is relieved, giving a false reading of about .56 caliber).  LOP is 13.375".  Page 375 of Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III".

An S. Hawken I measured at Cheyenne has a 35.5" barrel, .54 caliber, 13.875" LOP.  The Robidoux Hawken at Lincoln has a 32.125" .50 barrel, 1.125 to 1.090, and a LOP of 13.5".

An S. Hawken  with pistol grip at Cody has a 32.56" barrel 1.145 to 1.155 (that's right) and a 13.5" LOP (page 391 of Jim Gordon's book).  A capbox Hawken there (page 388 of Gordon) has a 31.81" barrel, 1 inch straight, LOP 13.625".

The W.S. Hawken at Cody has a 32.25" barrel 1.13 to 1.01, LOP 13.81".  It is so different, not much like a Hawken, I didn't like it.  The bore was so rusted I couldn't get a caliber reading on it.  Page 401 of Gordon's book.

I also measured a J&S Hawken at Helena but can't find my notes.  I posted about it in the Antique Rifle board here, probably about October, 2012.

Then there is the Parkman Hawken (Muzzle Blasts, August, 2010).  .50 caliber, barrel 42.625", 1.125 to 1.00.  Weight "some 15 pounds". LOP 13.125".  When Parkman got back from the Rocky Mountains, he gave this rifle to his guide- maybe because it was too much rifle to shoot well.  It had a walnut stock and a straight breech, not slant.

One important consideration in the trigger reach of these rifles is that they were used by mountain men who carried them every day, and they wore heavy buffalo coats for much of the winter.  I made a .54 Leman with a 24" barrel and a 12.75" LOP, but found it too long for my winter coat and back pack strap for elk hunting.  I'd like it a half inch shorter.  I have a 32.5" sleeve length.

[Dphariss]

I don't recall this question being asked or answered previously, but here it goes.  I'm pretty short and do better with lop of about 13" with a 12.5" lop being perfect without wearing a jacket.  Any consensus on the typical lop on rifles in the late 18th century?

Short, by modern standards, was common.
From RCA Vol 1
#19 is 12 15/16"
I think if you scale it #48 is about 12" or a little longer Dickert
#49 is 13 1/8" Dickert
#56 is 13  Neihart
#66 13 1/8" Dickert
#69 13 1/8" Gonter
#72 12 7/8  Graef

[Herb]

This is a Jacob Wigle rifle, from Westmoreland, PA, maybe 1820.  It was found in a dry cave with a mummified Indian boy in the mountains to my left, in the 1920's, north of Vernal, Utah.  I cleaned it up for a museum display.  The barrel was 46" originally, 1.045 at the breech  but now cut to 35.5 inches, where it is .930" at the muzzle.  It was flintlock, had been converted to caplock.  Trigger reach is 12 5/8 inches.

The rifle before cleaning.

Original on the left and the first of my three copies on the right.

Original in my left hand, my first copy in my right.

[vanu]

RCA #127: 14"
G. F. Fainot Rifle (Landis Valley Exhibit) : 13 1/2"

Lots of variability; best to make what is comfortable....

Bruce

[Craig Wilcox]

I'm pretty normal for today's sizes - hair under 6', about 200.  I generally use a 14" LOP on modern firearms.
I do find that it is much easier for me to adapt to a shorter LOP than a long one.  I shoot 13 1/4 quite comfortably, but 14 1/4 is awkward, to say the least.  I can still shoot the longer LOP, but it is not comfortable, even with a heavy coat on.
Herb, you did a great job copying that "cave" or "mummy" rifle.  Did you make all the copies in flint, or in percussion?  Amazing how you got all the furniture to the same style, really completes the firearm well.  Thanks for showing it - I may want to make me a copy in the future.

[rich pierce]

The RCA volumes have those measurements.

[Herb]

Craig, I made all three flintlock, like the original was made.  It was modified a lot during its lifetime.


My copy at bottom.

My copy at top.

My first copy at top, the second was made for a Wigle "cousin in law".  He wanted it .50 caliber with a walnut stock and silver mounting.  He hunted deer with it.



This is my third copy, with a 44 inch barrel.  The original started with a 46 inch barrel.  I learned as I built more copies.

[Herb]

Regarding the Cap Box Hawken at Cody, shown on page 388 of Gordon's book, I made a mistake.  I showed the Length of Pull as 13.625, but my notes from the museum show that it is really 12.625,  12 5/8 inches.  I scaled out Gordon's photo, and it is a 12 5/8 inch length of pull.

Also, Jim Bridger's barrel is 33 1/8 inches ahead of the snail, 1.185 ahead of the snail and 1.120 at the muzzle.  If you measure a different set of flats, you can see a variation. 

[WESTbury]

LOP of my two original longrifles:

New England Rifle= 13 inches

Hess Lehigh Rifle= 13-1/4 inches

With the No.I Mark III SMLE, the Brits attempted to accommodate different length of pull of individual soldiers by fitting rifles with four different LOP buttstocks: Long =13", Normal 12-1/2", Short 12", Bantam 11-1/2". The buttstocks of the Long, Short, and Bantam were marked near the buttplate tang with either: L, S, or B.--The Lee Enfield by Ian Skennerton, page 177