Author Topic: Tung Oil??  (Read 3955 times)

Offline mountainman

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Tung Oil??
« on: August 19, 2020, 09:47:23 PM »
I have this bottle of Behlen Pure Tung Oil, I had it for a couple years unopened, was thinking maybe I should start using it, just to get it used up, seems like I remember reading here somewhere but can't find it, of a recipe on how to thin and the right mix for finishing coats on the gun. Can some one refer me to it, or it usable???

Offline smart dog

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2020, 10:00:07 PM »
Hi,
I would mix 25% tung oil, 25% polyurethane varnish, and 50% mineral spirits.  That will make a very good finish and sealer.  The urethane will dramatically speed up the drying.

dave
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Offline mountainman

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2020, 11:59:23 PM »
Thanks Dave! So would this mix appear as an oil finish? And is it applicable by hand? Or how fast does it actually dry!

Offline scottmc

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2020, 12:08:18 AM »
They are questions I was going to ask, too.  Also, how well does tung stand up to moisture/water?  I've been tempted to try it as well but not sure of the moisture tolerance.  Not saying I'll take it out in the rain but if u get caught in it, does it hold up well?
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Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2020, 01:48:32 AM »
Tung oil has been used for century's on wooden ships.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2020, 02:45:32 AM »
Hi,
As a way of explanation.  I've used Sutherland-Welles polymerized tung oil for many years.  Polymerized means it is heat treated to dry quickly unlike raw tung oil.  When I moved to Ketchikan, Alaska I could not get the stuff easily because it had to be shipped by barge and was very expensive.  I could get raw tung oil from a local source and of course polyurethane varnish is available everywhere.  I concocted the mix to use on my guns and it finishes very much like Permalyn.  It filled grain quickly and could be built up to a gloss and rubbed back if desired.  If you used a low gloss urethane, it would have a more satin finish without rubbing.  It could look much like a traditional oil varnish if desired.  As far as weather resistance, it is far better than any linseed oil concoction and was field tested in some of the worst conditions imaginable for a wooden stock, heavy rain, temperatures and humidity varying widely, and sea spray. I've not found anything better.  When I moved back to Vermont and could get S-W polymerized tung oil, which is made in Vermont, I switched back to my old finish because it is a little softer and can mimic the look of a wide variety of old authentic finishes more closely and easily.  Here is a selection of guns finished with a tung oil-urethane mix.  You can see how a range of glosses and surfaces can be accomplished.
     















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Offline mountainman

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2020, 03:25:19 AM »
Thanks Dave, the finish does look great on those guns!

Offline scottmc

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2020, 01:40:55 PM »
Yes Dave, thank you for the explanation.  I think I might give it a try.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2020, 03:30:39 PM »
Dave,

I noticed Southerland Wells offers several varieties of the polymerized tung oil.  Which do you prefer?

Jim

Offline smart dog

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2020, 06:02:21 PM »
Hi Jim,
I use several depending on my objectives. Have you noted that I always say that.  I must be sounding very boring.  Most often I use their original polymerized tung oil in medium gloss.  This is not what they advertise for outdoor use.  Their exterior oil is the same stuff but with UV blockers added, which I don't find is necessary for a gun stock.  I also use their original oil in low gloss.  When I want a quick filling oil varnish look such as on a British Brown Bess, I use their wiping varnish, which is polymerized tung oil mixed with polyurethane varnish.  I used their "Botanical" polymerized tung oils in the past.  It cleans up easily and is less toxic to the environment but I had some trouble with it curing properly during winter months despite my heated shop.  I found it sometimes hazed because it was very sensitive to the previous coat being cured with no trapped moisture. I had to really slow down my finish cycles using it during winter, whereas the original formula worked fine.  I am tempted to try "Millie's All Purpose Penetrating" oil, which is a mix of polymerized tung oil and beeswax, and has a low sheen.  Also, Jim, their stop loss bags really work well to preserve the unused oil.

dave     
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline rtadams

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2020, 06:36:14 PM »
8-21-20

smart dog,

To be as precise as possible of the gun stock finish you make up, would you review the following and correct and or provide additional information as necessary:

1.  Sutherland-Welles original polymerized tung oil in medium gloss (medium luster as per latest designation by Sutherland-Welles).

2.  Name of manufacture of polyurethane varnish and any other detail information such that I can
     purchase the same product that you use or recommend.?

3.  Name of manufacture of the mineral spirits and any other detail information such that I can
     purchase the same product that you use or recommend?

Note:  To be mixed 25% tung oil, 25% polyurethane varnish, and 50% mineral spirits

Thanks for your willingness to share your stock finish formulation and procedure.

Best Regards,

Robert

« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 02:44:35 PM by rtadams »

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2020, 06:54:09 PM »
I avoid any real oil any more.  I have no patience for finish that takes days to weeks between coats. I do not believe linseed or tung oils bring anything special to that party.  They are historical but only because that was available, not the best choices today.  Heating the oil never made it cure faster for me.  Adding japan dryer will make it cure.  My idea is to have a coating of durable clear material in and on the wood.  I have no observed tung oil or linseed to do that very well. 

My last stock was done with eggshell spar varnish, a splash of japan dryer and about 50% turpentine.  I flooded the stock for the first coat and removed the excess after several minuets.  I put it on with a rag pad for subsequent coats.  I used maroon scotchbrite and 320 Wet dry between coats just enough to knock off the dust bumps.  It dried hard in a day.  The ultimate finish looks great.  IT took less than a week and about four passes.  Food for thought. 
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 06:58:38 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline mountainman

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2020, 07:08:25 PM »
So would this Behlen Tung oil I have on hand needs to be polymerized?

Offline smart dog

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2020, 08:13:02 PM »
Hi,
Scot, it is wise to have experience with the product we are discussing before expressing an opinion.  Moreover, you completely missed the point of this thread.  Mountainman has tung oil and would like advice on how to use it. Polymerized tung oil dries in 4-6 hours depending on weather and can be reapplied every 24 hours under most conditions.  It is cured sufficient for rubbing back after about a week.  Your heating is not polymerizing nor the same as what S-W produces.  Also, post pictures of your work so we can see your results.

Robert and Mountainman, just use any real tung oil, polymerized or not, any Varathane or Minwax polyurethane, and any brand of mineral spirits.  I would use mineral spirits rather than paint thinner because it is a higher quality product.  I emphasize real tung oil because Forby's and Minwax tung oil finishes are wiping varnishes and do not have any actual tung oil in them.  They have compounds derived from the oil but not the actual oil.  Your Behlen tung oil may be polymerized.  It will say so on the label.  If not, it is raw oil, which will take ages to dry unless mized with a drier or in the formula with a varnish as I described.

dave
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 09:32:24 PM by smart dog »
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Offline mountainman

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2020, 08:34:14 PM »
Thanks Dave I'll give it a try!!

Offline rtadams

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2020, 02:17:33 AM »
8-21-20

smart dog,

Thanks for the timely reply to my questions on your stock finishing materials as follows:

"Robert and Mountainman, just use any real tung oil, polymerized or not, any Varathane or Minwax polyurethane, and any brand of mineral spirits."


Best Regards,

Robert

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2020, 05:11:01 PM »
By my reading Tung Oil is toxic and some people are allergic to it. People who look I think will find recipes for oil finishes here that are superior to what you can buy. I have a formula for a a rosin/gum benzoin brown varnish but have not made any yet. I have made various batches of heat modified hardware store "boiled" LS oil that I have used a lot. Nor is it that slow to dry is if its properly made considering the store bought boiled oil as a raw material. But I have found that some batches seem to need to be reheated if in storage a long time. Mad Monk might he a help here. I won't put any of the synthetic finishes on a gunstock most will fail in a few years or maybe 20 and this includes Permalyn from reports I have read.
The Rosin has to be mixed with REAL high grade Turpentine to mix with the oil and gum benzoin with a good ethyl alcohol or moonshine. Denatured will work but we never really know how it was denatured. If making gunstock varnishes making more that a pint in a mistake in many cases unless it it decanted into smaller sealed bottles. Pint of oil, my friend recommended cold pressed food grade oil and the dryers added during the varnish making. a 1/2 pint or more of Turpentine (which will also add resin) enough to dissolve the 2 oz of powdered rosin, enough alcohol to mostly dissolve 2 ounces of gum benzoin. It will have a lot of dirt and junk in it but powder it up with a motar and pestle and use it. For traditional varnish a teaspoon of lead carbonate can be added as drier. I will likely use this and some Japan Drier as well. The original varnishes had dirt in them from the same source. I would give other details but I have not made and tested any yet.
I think somewhere in the archives I have described making boiled oil for fill but with no or little added resin it makes a great filler or fits coat with good turpentine added but it not as good as a top coat since it has little resin. I have made varnish by added Grumbachers Oil Painters Medium III 50-50 with oil I have heat modified "boiled LS Oil" (acid killed, thickened and drier added by heating in a deep fat fryer). Its works pretty well this way. A heavier oil varnish will often give a satisfactory finish on hard maple with on soaking fill coat cut about with 20-25% Turpentine. Excess turp can result in to little of the oil finish IN the wood. The natural oil IN the wood is what enhances the figure in the wood. While it will be dry enough to use is a day with the excess wiped off in an hour or so it will not fully cure in the wood for a few days and full color will not appear for some time.   The photo is 3 coats, a seal coat and 2 thin, spread with the hand finish coats. But it a couple of years old or more here. In the first couple of weeks after application its not this bright. And its best set in the sun to cure. Which greatly speeds curing time. And the really thick oil I use for fill will allow 2 coats a day but will not COMPLETELY dry in this time but will gum up enough to stay in the pores of the wood when rubbed off with OOOO steel wool or burlap. Varnish is often too hard for this since I put on really heavy coats on Walnut and it would be difficult to remove. Example, Birchwood Casey "Tru-Oil" is especially bad if not reduced with BLO.
The only store bought oil finish that I have had good reports on is Jim Chambers oil.
I would avoid any finish with petroleum solvents since they are a health hazard due to the toxic fumes. Plastic finishes, IMO have no place on firearms of any kind and especially on a longrifle. Having stripped the plastic off some modern guns and refinished I can tell you there IS a difference.
Finally if you have to put on 7 or 8 or 20 or more coats of finish you are REALLY using the wrong stuff. Most original rifles even factory mades in the late 19th c had one coat of finish. But it was a heavy bodied fat oil varnish and had little or no penetration. This is true on many ML arms as well. Like the Bridger Hawken in Helena.
This is a seal coat and 2 thin finish coats on plank sawn hard Maple.


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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2020, 05:25:06 PM »
Has anyone painted their favorite finish on a piece of maple to make a coating and then put it out on the back yard or hung it on a fence for a year?
Just asking.

Dan
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Tung Oil??
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2020, 05:35:48 PM »
Hi Dan,
No not on a piece of maple hung out on a fence but I used my tung oil formula to paint the wooden seats of my ocean going skiff used in Alaskan waters with very good results. 

dave
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