Flint & Powder Question

[NJS]

I'm going to be placing an order for powder in the not too distant future for a 40 cal. Kibler SMR. What are the differences, both pros and cons, between Schuetzen, Swiss, Goex, and Olde Eynsford? No local stores carry real black powder where I live anymore and with the minimum order requirements I want to make sure I get what I'm looking for the on 1st try. I will be using this rifle primarily for squirrel hunting so, if I can get a powder that's more accurate, cleaner burning, or more efficient (I know there are a lot of other factors that can contribute to this) then I'm willing to spend a few extra dollars a pound. What are the pros and cons of using 3F vs 4F for a priming powder? Is there one brand or make that is better than the other for priming powder? Also, is there a certain type of flint that I need to look for? I had no clue there was so many different types of flint material that was used for rifle flints, not to mention sizes, until now.  Thanks again for all of your help!

[Bob McBride]

Using Goex as the standard, I’d say Swiss is much hotter (15-20%? but also slightly smaller and smoother grained), and perhaps harder fouling in a less humid climate with wet patching, Old E is made by Goex to compete with Swiss. Seems to come close to me. Not so hot. Schuetzen is dirty. Can’t say much else about it as I only really have used their 1f for my big bore stuff. Maybe G to G a bit weaker than Goex. The pro bench shooters will chime in with a bit more technical info.

I like Swiss 3f in my smaller caliber stuff with greased patching. No fouling issues, though Goex will probably perform as well will less FPS per grain of powder.

I use Swiss 0B for priming for quickest possible ignition when using 1/2f. 4f is nearly as good. 3f in the bore usually get 3f in the pan but not always. Lots of folks just use what’s in their main horn regardless.

Other folks mileage WILL vary. Lots of ways to do this stuff right.

[MuskratMike]

You are going to get lots of different replies to this all of which are correct in their own way.
As to what the "Muskrat" uses in his Kibler .40 caliber SMR I use Goex powder. I am not a competitive target shooter I just want to drop the game I shoot at and the targets on the range to go "clang". Much cheaper than the others and very reliable. As to loads all rifles are different but for close work or paper targets I use 40 grains of 3F. For hunting I use 60 grains of 3F both using a .395 Hornady round ball. I use Goex 4F in my priming horns only for the reason that in the Pacific NW we don't get the humidity a large portion of the country gets and I for one believe it is what works best for me.
Congratulations on buying a fine rifle. Jim makes extremely fine rifles and kits.
"Muskrat" Mike

[Molly]

I'll echo what has been said above.  Personally we go with Goex 3f as the charge and 4f in the pan.  I doubt a different brand would amount to any difference in our resulting accuracy.

[moleeyes36]

NJS,

If you're shooting a .40 caliber rifle, as you say you're going to be, the charges are so small that the difference in cost per shot for the powder is very small indeed between GOEX, Old Enysford, and Swiss.  If you do some searches here on the forum you will find a boat load of discussions about what powder people prefer.  It's a personal choice and folks differ on what they prefer.  I've shot them all and find that Swiss suits me best followed by Old Enysford then GOEX.  But it's just MY personal choice.  Any of them will work for you.

Don Richards

[hanshi]

Over the decades I've hunted with several brands, excluding Swiss & OE.  Without chronographing or very precise bench resting I could not see a dimes worth of difference IN THE FIELD.  My .40 & .36 seem to shoot the same tiny groups with about any powder I pour down the bore.  3F is about all I use.  Barrels have their own personality and likes/dislikes.  Some shooters, for example, do their best shooting with Swiss, while some others report poor performance.  Ask your barrel what it thinks about brand.  Goex IS the standard and most always a good to excellent choice; this makes it a good place to start.  And 4F is for the pan but 3F or 2F seem to do well.

[moleeyes36]

NJS,

It seems those of us that have answered your post have forgotten to address the part about flints.  I recommend that you use knapped flints rather than cut flints.  I'd guess that Jim's new Ketland lock which will come in your SMR kit uses a 3/4 x 7/8 flint, but Jim can confirm that.  The overwhelming majority of cut flints are either black English or French amber, both have their pros and cons.  My experience with them indicates to me that the black English flints seem stronger and more shatter resistant but don't hold and edge as well; the French amber flints seem more brittle but hold an edge better and last longer.  This is just my observation.  Others experience may differ.

Track of the Wolf is a source for both types https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/141/1 and https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/142/1

Stonewall Creek Outfitters is another good source http://www.stonewallcreekoutfitters.com/flints/

There several other vendors out there for flints.

Don Richards

[wolf]

i shot mostly swiss for a long time. a year ago i bought a 40 southern mountain rifle. it would shoot tiny groups with swiss 3f, but after 5 or 6 shots it would develop a hard ring of fouling and i would have to almost beat the ball down the barrel the last 2in. i went to goex and the problem went away. i can shoot all i want to without wiping the bore. i had to find the right load with the goex to get consistent groups though. but now it's a sweet shooter with 55gr. 3f goex and a denim patch from old blue jeans. about .20 thick. my larger bores eats 3f or 2f goex and goex ol eynsford like candy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Marcruger]

I think you have received good advice on the powder.  I have found Goex to work great.  No complaints.  Swiss is faster, but leaves a harder crud in my experience and climate.

I'd use 3f Goex for your .40 load.  Buy a can of 4f Goex for your pan (it'll last you a long time).  Pletch's wonderful high speed photography article shows Swiss NullB to be a smidgen faster than 4f in the pan.  However, as Mad Monk kindly pointed out, the graphite in NullB coats the pan and frizzen like black spray paint in certain climates.  I've switched to 4f in the pan.   

Traditional wisdom is that you use 3f loads from small bore up to about .45 caliber.  For .50 and up, use 2f.   There is an overlap with .45 and .50 calibers.  Some interchange 2f and 3f.  You have to try the loads in your gun and see which works better.  You are clearly in the 3f camp for the barrel of your .40. 

Of course, for example, 2f will send a ball downrange from your .40 if it is all you have.  There are a great many experiments that resulted in the above wisdom, but if you want to reinvent the wheel, by all means go ahead.  If you are buying powder, you won't be wrong in choosing 3f for your .40.

I hope this helps a little.  God Bless,   Marc

[sqrldog]

Check out Jim Kibler's online store. He sells French amber flints for $2.50 each for his locks. That's what I would use. Tim

[NJS]

Thanks for all the great information!

[hanshi]

I've seen bad English AND bad French flints; but by far most of the flints I've used gave excellent performance, whether black, amber or the white ones. 

[wolf]

i get my flint from "stonewall creek" they are always good,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[EC121]

I second the Stonewall Creek flints.  The owner says they are knapped in Germany from English and French flint.  Seems to be a higher proportion of good flints in a bag of 50.   Recently, I have been experimenting with putting a shim of leather under the rear of the flint to tilt it and get more of a slicing action.  It seems to help keep the strike line from developing on the frizzen face.  A matchstick or toothpick would work as well. 

[TonyM]

Dang Brice. Wish we were closer. I get tired of shooting and experimenting alone.
Tony