Author Topic: Welding question  (Read 6074 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Welding question
« on: August 11, 2009, 05:13:14 PM »
Let me preface this by saying that I do not pretend to be a welder however I own a wire welder that uses flux core wire. I used it to weld sheet metal floor pans in my 57 Chevy and the came out pretty good.

The other day I took a piece of regular hardware store (probably cold rolled) steel and welded it on to a tang. I filed it into a "dolls head" tang for one of my Gillespie rifles. Never tried this before. It turned out pretty good and seemed to be very solid in the weld. When I had just about finished inletting it into the stock I broke the weld when pulling the barrel/tang out. I had it too tight and I put too much leverage on it trying to get it out of the mortise (I know, it doesn't need to be that tight!)

My question is should I try re-welding this piece of cold rolled back on or should I get better steel? Or should I get a better person/machine to weld it? (The flux cored wire has been in the welder at least 3 years and I know its sold in air tight wrapping. Have heard it has a shelf life after opening.)

Where it broke it looks like the weld is ok but the cold rolled steel appears to have given way. While the tang/weld looks ok.
Dennis
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eagle24

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2009, 05:50:01 PM »
Dennis,

I'm not going to pretend to be a welder either, but I have a wire welder and instead of a 57 chevy mine is a 68 mustang. ;D

If it broke at/in the weld, it sounds to me like you didn't get a good penetrating weld.  I would think it was the weld rather than the steel.  I did some welding to repair a forged trigger guard and turned the heat up pretty good to build up in front of the trigger bow.  Once I had everything filed back to shape you couldn't see any lines between the steel and the weld.  It completely penetrated and "welded" the steel into seemingly one piece.  Do you think your weld penetrated good or just "stuck" the pieces?

BTW, I use gas with mine and not fluxed wire.  Don't know if you have that capability with your welder, but it works much better.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2009, 05:58:12 PM »
Use cold or hot rolled low carbon, 1018 etc. Higher carbon stuff just makes for more trouble. A chunk of 12L14 gun barrel should weld OK. But its best to know what you are welding.
It appears you need to increase the power and maybe reduce the feed rate a little.
I have run into lack of bonding/poor penetration, when not letting things get hot enough.
Also if the steel has hard spots/carbon inclusions or is high carbon it is best to heat a wide area before welding then anneal afterwards.

Dan
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FG1

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2009, 06:21:17 PM »
File a bevel on both pieces at the butt joint above and below before rewelding. It will make up for penetration plus add to surface area strength.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 06:31:07 PM »
12L14 doesn't weld well at all. That is because of the lead in it.  However. I would say that your problem is not the metal you are using .   You did not get the penetration you needed. The weld was too cold.  You need to bevel it as described before and use a higher heat range when welding it.  Cold welding temps. look real good but do not hold. The weld is just on the surface and the metal is not fused. A silver soldered joint is stronger by far than a weld with insufficient penetration and a lot easier to do and clean up. Nothing beats a tig weld.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2009, 02:28:15 AM »
Thanks guys, I think I will take it to a guy I know that runs a welding shop. I suspect you are right about the temp. I did not use the highest temp. I did bevel it but probably not enough.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

jmforge

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 02:56:21 AM »
I have never welded,but I do play around with steel a tad.  make sure you talk to your welder freind and let him know what kind of steel the plug/tang is made from.  Some of the patent breeches that I have seen are made from alloy steels like 8620 which might require a bit more care and prep than plain carbon steel like 1018.

Birddog6

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 04:08:43 AM »
Dennis:  Well, that is strange because I have one I am having the same issue with.  And the only thing different from with it & the  ? over a dozen tangs I have welded is the wire.  I welded one 3 mo ago perfect & no issues at all.....  I put a new spool of wire on my welder & now I can't get this thing to weld without the weld cracking. (I use solid wire & gas shield) I have welded it cold, hot,  annealed, didn't anneal it,  more heat, less heat, more wire feeld less wire feed, and afterwards no matter what I do, the weld cracks.  So, yesterday I went back to  the welding place I got a spool of the old wire brand I had been using (the new spool was a dif brand, says it is the same wire but dif. brand) and I am going to try one with the prev. brand of wire like I was using & see if that makes a dif.

Now I am not a welder, but I have welded dozens of tangs, dozens of T/guards, welded up hammers, lockplates, lots of things & I have never had a issue with them cracking......  So.......  next week I will see what happens & let ya know if it was the wire or the operator.....   ::)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 04:09:52 AM by Birddog6 »

DEADDAWG

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 05:04:52 AM »
Birddog6,

If I may make a suggestion as far as your welding, check your liner in the whip. Take it apart and clean it. A lot of times you will get cracks that are actually porosity if the liner becomes dirty and partially clogged making your gas flow (volume) sporadic at the nozzle. This will normally happen at the end of one spool or drum or the beginning of another. Also make sure you don't have any air blowing across your work that could be blowing the shielding gas off your weld, doesn't take much. I run 24 robotic MIGs at work and it's rarely the wire causing the problems, normally dirty liner and at this time of year - fans.

Rick

Birddog6

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 03:10:41 PM »
Well...... it couldn't be the liner.... I have only had it 17 years & it is only the 2nd one........  ::)  Guess I will get a new one & try it again. Wasn't the wind as I was inside & had everything closed in the shop as I just went in there to weld that & be done.....  I will go get a new liner, & shield for it today as I will be 1/4 mile from the welding supplier.  (I hve new tips)   thanks.......  Gonna try the new wire first tho, just for kicks. Then go to the new liner & etc. and eliminate one thing at a time...........  Otherwise, it will end up fixed & I won't know what did it !   ;D 

ottawa

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 03:25:18 PM »
if you have an air compresser try blowing out the liner first it just may need to be cleaned out . cracking sounds more like too cold a weld in the flux core turn up the heat and put a bigger bevel on both sides like mentioned be for and weld both sides of matterail to make a stronger weld just welding oneside mite not be enough and give the bottom flex that can break your weld after filing it back or put the bevel all the way a round and do the weld that way

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 05:55:43 PM »
Dennis:  Well, that is strange because I have one I am having the same issue with.  And the only thing different from with it & the  ? over a dozen tangs I have welded is the wire.  I welded one 3 mo ago perfect & no issues at all.....  I put a new spool of wire on my welder & now I can't get this thing to weld without the weld cracking. (I use solid wire & gas shield) I have welded it cold, hot,  annealed, didn't anneal it,  more heat, less heat, more wire feeld less wire feed, and afterwards no matter what I do, the weld cracks.  So, yesterday I went back to  the welding place I got a spool of the old wire brand I had been using (the new spool was a dif brand, says it is the same wire but dif. brand) and I am going to try one with the prev. brand of wire like I was using & see if that makes a dif.

Now I am not a welder, but I have welded dozens of tangs, dozens of T/guards, welded up hammers, lockplates, lots of things & I have never had a issue with them cracking......  So.......  next week I will see what happens & let ya know if it was the wire or the operator.....   ::)

Or the material you are welding....
A lot of steel out there, even today is poor quality.

Dan
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Offline rick landes

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2009, 09:38:01 PM »
Flux core is not the best choice. As noted a TIG will give you a clean job, but now days the new machines can produce MIG welds that are just as good and faster in many cases. (We are doing some R&D for a major electronics compnay and have gotten to use some amazing machines that will be coming out.)

The first problem is a cold lap joint. Pretty weld, yet pretty useless. I would use a common piece of flat steel rather than build up a weld to enlarge a part unless a built up was my only choice. Issues of bluing and finish can become more complex with multi materials. Also trying to put down a built up weld w/o outgassing pores can be toughin some applications.

The latter Birddog issue sounds like a lack of proper atmosphere at, during and after as the weld is cooled. We see cracking often when welding nickel rods on cast type materials. Most times it seems if gas type and pressure are fine it is a lack of maintaining the atmosphere after the wire has stopped. Based on your past experience that is what I would check first. Liners relate to wire flow and heavy volume machines will often show this resistance to feed smoothly. I would explain everything to your local weld supplier. They are to be the experts in this. Don't go and buy parts to replace what you are guessing at. At minimum call the manuacturer if the supplier is a deadend.
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Birddog6

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 11:54:36 PM »
I am going to just try a new spool & tang & another extension then.  Asking my welding supplier would be like asking this keyboard..... he sells, and that is it.....

Probably all operator issues..... cause the last one went perfect, and the others went with no issues, this one will not go at all.  It is together & strong as it has a piece welded underneath at the joint, I just can't get it to  not crack.  If you are at the CLA show I will show it to you as I have it in-the-white, but have not finished it because I have done this weld more times than I want to admit & it is still not right.  A cosmetic issue, but one I would rather not have.

Thanks guys   ;)

Keith

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 03:13:51 PM »
Let's start with cold & hot rolled steel ... more often than not, you will not find cold rolled in a hardware store because it is dimensionally correct and quite a bit more expensive than the el cheapo hot rolled which never quite right dimensionally.  Common cold rolled presents a major problem of being stressed from the rolling process because unless it's spec'ed as being post-roll heat treated (even more expensive), it's not.  When you try to weld it, the heat from the weld will play heck with the stress already in the steel as well as compound the problem by adding stress created by the weld shrink.

The common generic GMAW (MIG) filler wires for mild steel are actually alloyed quite a bit to not only produce a better weld via the GMAW process but also many are made to comply primarily with the SAE standards for automotive repair which means they deposit a harder than normal weld as compared with the common generic E60xx/E70xx series SMAW (stick) electrodes. 

There is also another problem with GMAW and that's the "cold start" meaning both work and filler are cold when you hit the trigger and it takes a certain amount of time for everything to come up to working temperature.  GMAW is thought to be quite handy and dainty but in reality the starting point of the weld is like the top of a zipper joint if it's not done correctly and you go into it cold.  When you're talking the small cross sectional area of a tang, you must not only pre-heat but also come into the weld with hot wire.  Pre-heat of the work should be at least 450°F - fixture the pieces on a piece of scrap steel that extends past both sides of the joint and pre-heat the entire assembly.  Get the weld started on the scrap then come into the joint with the wire running properly and continue right on out the other side of the joint and break the arc on the scrap to ensure complete fill and eliminate post-fill cratering.  If you stuck the work to the scrap, just use a cut-off wheel to cut the weld staying away from the work about 0.010" and break the remaining weld by bending.  Overfill the joint too, too much is better than not enough, it comes off easy with the 4.5" angle grinder.  Flip the work over, groove the backside until you're into the weld from the front side - this is especially important when running coated/cored filler so as to ensure you are not trapping slag in the joint and repeat the welding process.  With the exception of certain specific FC & DS GMAW wires, make sure you are running it EN (Electrode Negative) so as to put the heat on the work and not on the wire as this will eliminate loosing the shielding.  If you have too much drag angle on the electrode, you'll get a high bead but less penetration, keep that wire dang near perpendicular and don't rush it, let it work.

No matter if you used cold rolled steel or not, you should still post-heat treat the weld anyway.  Bring the whole piece of work up to around 500°F and beat the $#@* out of it with a hammer.  You don't need to forge it into a different shape but you want to peen-relieve the stress as much as possible.  Normally I peen with a pneumatic hammer as soon as the arc is broken but a tang only requires the use of a small 3-6oz hammer and you can peen as soon as you break the arc but watch that flying slag as it will most certainly find your eyes and nasal passages.  You want to lightly peen the entire weld plus a little past it on both sides.  You need not hit it so as to deform it but be real close to using that much of a striking force.  It never hurts to run a full post-weld heat treat either, I'd say a two hour soak then keep the cooling rate around 75-80°F per hour max.

12L14 can be welded quite easily because the Pb content is only a mere 0.15-0.35% and it boils off and comes out as Pb vapor or oxide trapped in the slag if using a flux type electrode.  The only time you'll have an issue welding 12L14 is when using a gas-shielded process and not running hot enough or using the right technique and you'll trap the oxides in the weld instead of floating them out on the deposit puddle. 


Birddog6,

It's not your liner.  The liner only houses the wire and when it's bad, you'll find the wire get jumpy/sticky resulting in a jerky sputtering weld ... trust me, you'll know when the liner is screwed up.  The shielding gas flow through between the outer shield of the whip and the liner, not through the liner itself.  If you were loosing gas or have poor/disrupted flow at the nozzle, you'll see little (or sometime huge) bubbles in the weld deposit where you lost shielding - turn the gas off and the weld will look like spray-in foam and be about as strong as the foam too.  That's a little excessive but it'll give you a good idea what to look for.  If you're not seeing it with your eye, run a bead of weld, grind then sand half of it off and look at it with a 30x loupe.  If don't see any porosity, go to the next step, warm the work up to 220-240°F and dunk it in used c-c oil letting it cool completely in the oil bath.  Wipe it clean with a dry rag then slowly re-heat the piece back up the 220'ish range while closely watching the weld.  If you have porosity, you'll see little spots of oil cooking out of the weld.  If you have interbead cracking, you'll see that too in the form of thin lines of oil.  Porosity is a shielding/contamination issue, interbead cracking is an alloy, heat and/or stress issue.

Based on what you said thus far, I'd hazard a guess that you may have gotten hard wire (most of this stuff is made overseas and depending on the brand name, it could be anything wrapped on that spool).  Reason I am quick to blame the wire here is because you said you didn't have any problems until the wire was changed and that's usually a good indication it's either the wire, a setting issue or the machine just happened to $#@* at the same time.  When you changed the wire, did you clean all the electrical contact connections between the machine, wire feed assembly and whip?  If yes, did you accidentally swap polarity?  GS solid wire needs to run EP (electrode positive). 

When blowing out the whip, always blow in the direction the wire runs first, then reverse the airflow but only after you have removed the whip from the machine so as not to blow all the crud back into the feed assembly.  Check the o-ring/gasket seals on the gas side connection at the whip on a regular basis (don't get suckered into buying the $6+ each "special" o-rings in the welding supply section of the hardware/autoparts store, it's "inert" gas, common generic buna/viton o-rings work just fine and a thin coating of non-drying silicone ball valve grease will keep the whip from binding in the socket (very thin coating so as not to plug the gas ports).

For everyone, do yourself and avoid buying rod/wire at the big box stores because unless it's McKay, Lincoln or Harris, it's likely generic junk - not to lump all the generic's together because some of it is good certified wire that simply got wrapped onto smaller spools.  The first-filled at the wire plant are the 500 pound drums/coils then 60-120 pound and so on down to the smaller packages.  If the plant is not a continuous feed multi-wrap where smaller sizes can be wrapped without stopping the line, then they wind up with a lot of remnants which are often sold to re-wrapping companies resulting in being able to obtain good wire under at a generic price.  I know Hobart brand is owned by Miller but avoid their filler materials - I've had nothing but problems with Hobart.
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2009, 05:24:45 PM »
12L14 doesn't weld well at all. That is because of the lead in it. <snip>


Heh, heh! Never thought about the inclusions. Or actually tried 12L14.

Dan
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Offline jerrywh

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Re: Welding question
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2009, 07:05:03 PM »
FL-Flinter is the man around here when it comes to welding stuff.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.