Engrailing horns

[Bob F]

Well...
I would really like to do some engrailing on the horn I am working on but I am not sure of exactly how to do it. 

Any help, pointers, or pics would be really appreciated.  I have Sibley's book but still need some clarification.

[seesbirds]

Bob,

If you want to, you can look at the work I've done at www.shinintimespowderhorns.com

If you want to talk about how I did any of that, feel free to call.  the number is on the website.

Mark Preston

[G. Elsenbeck]

Mark, welcome aboard. 
Gary

[eseabee1]

Before I started making them I just kept looking at other peoples work and books,Its addictive

[Jerry V Lape]

Draw on the line for the shoulder of the engrailing.  I move a little forward of that line and cut, file or scrape to remove about a 1/16" of horn all around and then clean up the edge back to the line.  If you are not concerned with PC methods a dremel can be useful (or fatal).  I prefer to scrape with a furniture type steel scraper which pretty much leaves a finish which requires very little sanding if any to have the surface ready for scrim.  I finish the shoulder with a sharp chisel or knife- depending on how you are decorating the shoulder.  Scraping is especially good when doing faceted work on the neck.There is no right way, just whatever lets you get the job done with your skills.  I read many of the originals were scraped with pieces of glass.   

[Randy Hedden]

I can't decide if you are talking about engrailing or something else???  Engrailing is the little notches that are cut out of the body of the horn where it meets the large end of the throat area.  

If that is what you are talking about, then those notches are cut with a wood working gouge.  The easiest way to do the engrailing on a horn you are making is to use a hack saw and cut a line around the horn almost as deep as you want the circumference of the throat to be when finished.  Now, stop there and don't file the throat area down.  If you reduce the circumference of the throat area now, you will surely take the chance of cutting into the throat with the gouge as you do the engrailing.  Do the engrailing before cutting the throat area down. That way any slips with the gouge will be stopped by the material of the throat that has not yet been relieved. Take the throat area down after doing your engrailing.  Ideally, I want my engrailing to almost touch the surface of the throat when all excess material of the throat has been removed.  I find it easiest to have someone hold the horn for me while I cut the engrailing with the gouge.  The triangular notches often used for engrailing are cut with a "V" chisel.

I never measure my engrailing notches and just cut them by eye.  I make my first cut on the bottom center of the horn and then work my way around the horn until I come back to the initial cut.  I try to evenly space the cuts by eye and may have to fudge a little to make the last couple of cuts look evenly spaced.

Randy Hedden

[Tim Crosby]

 The easiest way to do the engrailing on a horn you are making is to use a hack saw and cut a line around the horn almost as deep as you want the circumference of the throat to be when finished.  Now, stop there and don't file the throat area down.  If you reduce the circumference of the throat area now, you will surely take the chance of cutting into the throat with the gouge as you do the engrailing.  Do the engrailing before cutting the throat area down. That way any slips with the gouge will be stopped by the material of the throat that has not yet been relieved. Take the throat area down after doing your engrailing.  
Randy Hedden

  Wow! Under the heading of; Why didn't I think of that, what a great idea. No !@#$, GREAT tip. I am not much on engrailing but I will give that a try.

 THANKS Randy, Tim C.  

 PS: Did you ever try softening the horn by heating before cutting?TC

[G. Elsenbeck]

Tim, I haven't tried heating up the horn prior to cutting.  Guess I never gave it any thought but, should keep the horn dust down a bit.  Good idea.  And Randy, good tip for those looking for future engrailing.  I pretty much do the same process you describe only I've also used a file from time to time instead of the hack saw blade.  Using the saw blade definitely leaves a nicer edge and controlling the the line and depth is the trick.
Gary

[Bob F]

Thanks for the tips.  I was talking about the little notches where the body meets the neck.  I will give it a try on my next horn because I already have the neck shaped and don't want to ruin the flats where I did a lot of scraping (and bleeding).  Man I didn't even feel the flat scraper cutting into my finger tips until I saw the blood on the horn. 

I'll just finish it up with a ring where the body meets the neck.

Bob

[Acer Saccharum]

Hi, Randy.

Acer

[Randy Hedden]

  Wow! Under the heading of; Why didn't I think of that, what a great idea. No !@#$, GREAT tip. I am not much on engrailing but I will give that a try.

 THANKS Randy, Tim C.  

 PS: Did you ever try softening the horn by heating before cutting?TC

Tim,

I have always done my engrailing like I explained.  I just took it for granted that everyone did it this way until a few months ago when a question was asked about engrailing here on the ALR.  

I have never found it necessary to heat the horn for engrailing.  I use the same gouges that I use for building rifles and just make sure that they are sharpened as if I was doing carving on a rifle.  

Randy Hedden  

[Randy Hedden]

Hey, Acer.

Randy

[Longshot]

Another option..............if  the decision on engrailing, or other detail work along the throat/body transition line comes late in the effort, is to wrap/tape a strip cut from an aluminum can around the lower area to be protected. 
Good for file or gouge work.

[Brian]

Randy - thanks for the tip on engraling.  One of the few projects I may actually finish this summer is a horn I've been playing with.  I wanted to try engraling on it, but was not sure how to go about it.  Great idea!  I'd have never thought of that, and for sure I'd have cut back all the lower sections before I started the notching.

Not having the artistic eye you guys do however, I think I'll likely be "pre-measuring" the notches around the horn before I start cutting.  Otherwise I'll have a disaster for sure.  End up with half a notch somewhere. 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Brian, also keep in mind the proper placement of the engrailed 'edge' on the horn.  Maintaining a good proportion (the Golden Mean) will ensure the finished horn will be pleasing to the eye.  I usually start by drawing a line approximately 1/3 from the cut tip to see if the proposed engrailed will give me the best look.  Now depending on the treatments (involved or simple) given to the rest of the throat area will depend where best the 'engrailed edge' will be.  Again, depending on your horn as to how many compound curves have (after your tip is cut) may also dictate where the best placement of the engrailment should be.   As long as the proportion looks good then your endeavor will come out just fine (IMHO I think a minimum 60/40, horn body to throat area may be okay).   
Also keep in mind alot of the horn masters in the 18th century didn't cut perfectly all the time either and most times this is what gives their horns such great character.  Don't forget to have fun and happy horning.
Gary

[Jerry V Lape]

Well I certainly learned something on this thread.  I thought engrailing was forming the line where the throat and body meet, not the notching of the edge of that shoulder.  That was what I was answering above.  I like to finish that line with a square file with a safe side against the throat so I get a precise line.  The notches I cut with a gouge as Randy described except I will now have to try his process of cutting the notches before the throat is formed to preclude puncturing the throat.  As for premeasuring the notches - good luck.  The horns irregular shape is not a great place for engineers.  Easier on artists to eyeball it and make a few minor adjustments as you close the gap.  Usually with a couple slightly wider or narrower spaces between the notches does the trick and is really not noticeable. 

[Pete G.]

I once tried drilling a line of shallow 1/4" holes around the horn then filing the front half of the holes away when cutting the neck area down. Turned out OK, but I didn't have a set of gouges then either. You gotta be pretty careful with the depth of the holes. Keep them consistient.

[seesbirds]

OK, I know I am going to draw brickbats for this but here goes. 

I was taught about engrailing by a couple of master horners.  One of them, told me that he ALWAYS used a Dremel tool, and how to get different effects with it.  I practiced on a horn for a while and when I felt like I had the technique down started to use it on all the horns I make. 

I know this isn't "PC" but I don't have the time right now to learn to do it with chisels.  Although, some of the advice here is very intriguing, indeed ingenious,  and perhaps some day I will try them, using a Dremel tool has worked so far for me and I don think I am going to stop doing it anytime soon.

I even got my dentist to give me some of her old dental drill bits to use when I am doing work that requires really small bits.  they work great. 

I'd like to add that I am constantly in awe of the work you guys do.  Even the guys trying hornwork for the first time are light years ahead of where I was when I made my first horn. 

No matter what technique you use, it is going to take practice to get it right, so keep trying on a practice piece and find the technique which works best for you.

Mark Preston
www.shinintimespowderhorns.com

[Jerry V Lape]

Mark, since you brought it up, I too have used a dremel in horn making for the engrailing.  Certainly is fast and pretty easy to get correct depth and uniform size of the circular notches.  I also used a gouge for this.  A well known master horner confessed he too uses the dremel for many things on his horns, particularly where he wants a wide line in the scrim of a river, for example.  He is more interested in producton than I am.  I only need a new horn occassionally. 





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