Author Topic: Rifle on ALR Banner?  (Read 2985 times)

Offline Cotton1of2

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Rifle on ALR Banner?
« on: June 28, 2020, 06:27:21 PM »
Hi All,

I’ve always appreciated the lines of the rifle in the ALR banner and I think I’d like to build it. Can anyone tell me what style/maker it is? I’m thinking Lancaster but that’s a huge ball park and I’d really like to have a more definitive idea.

Thanks for the help!

-Ryan Cotton

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 06:50:11 PM »
Don't worry too much about "schools" and so on. If you like the way it looks, build it! The whole idea of "schools" is a modern concept much of it coined by people, mostly collectors who never held a maple blank or gouge in their hands. Sure, each builder had his own style and maybe his apprentices were influenced by their masters  to some extant but, think like an artist and make what is attractive to you, not as someone who is copying someone elses ideas. Within reason of course. This is not to say you don't study pictures and become knowledgeable about the development of the longrifle, just that you don't become a slave to it. 
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2020, 07:06:53 PM »
Mark Elliott made that rifle. If my memory is right, he started and established the ALR website. I believe this is an iron mounted rifle of Appalachian styling. I hope he chimes in to give us more details.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Cotton1of2

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2020, 05:36:53 PM »
Thank you Rich Pierce. I talked to Mark and he did indeed build that rifle. He says he was going for a southern Mountain rifle in the style of Hershel House.

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2020, 05:58:26 PM »
Gotta disagree with ol deep creek.
The schools of long rifles are VERY important.  Gun builders were taught as apprentices by their masters.  The schools differentiate their styles from other masters. It’s really the only evidence we have to determine where they came from, and who built them. They were made one at a time, not mass produced in a factory as they are today.  No Ruger, Browning, Savage back then.
You can build and shoot anything with a lock, stock, and barrel, but to me, the idea of building one that could have come out of old Herman Rupp’s, or Jacob Dickert shop is everything.
We don’t want to lose that original school.
Hope that helps.
In His grip,

Dane

Offline axelp

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2020, 06:24:49 PM »
The "schools" or specific styles of the gunbuilding trade, or any art for that matter, tell an important story--a progression. To disregard or ignore them would be to disregard history. As an artist, there is most certainly freedom to create whatever you want to, merging styles and techniques from different times and regions to make something new and interesting. But in so doing, you depart from the study of history and make your own history. Nothing wrong with that at all, just don't call it history or pretend it is relevent to history. Its relevance lies in the future and hopefully will be studied at some point as "history." Art History is important. To ignore the historical progression of art styles based on the masters and the different regions where they did their art would be unfortunate. So there is "history," and there is "art."  Two different things really... both important, uh maybe until you confuse the two?
Galations 2:20

Offline hanshi

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2020, 10:52:41 PM »
But you can still understand and respect the evolution and history of the longrifle while building your own style that suits you.  Builders today are, themselves, making history with their longrifle art.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2020, 01:16:55 AM »
Hi,
I believe Ryan is interested in the school or style of the rifle in the banner and we should focus on his question not whether schools are important.  I hope Mark chimes in.  He is a superb maker of Virginia connected rifles.

dave
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Offline Lucky R A

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2020, 01:37:31 AM »
        I think there is a maturing process in building.  At present, I have built over 380 guns that I can account for and probably more.  When I started building for myself back in the mid 1960's, I copied an original owned by a friend.  I then got a copy of Kindig's book; it became my bible.  I would search through it for carving designs, engraving designs, sideplates, patchboxes, etc., that I liked and put them together piece meal on a stock of generic architecture.   Some of the results were very nice; some I hope never surface.  As I continued building, I became exposed to more and more originals; I became much more picky about architecture and getting things right on a particular style gun.  I became a KRA member and started "graduate" studies.  The exposure to the real experts on longrifles, who could look at a gun from across the room and tell you where it was made and likely by whom, really firmed up my commitment to getting things right.  Guys like Smart Dog who study every nuance of a particular piece have my highest admiration.  There are a number of them on this site that have fully matured.   Building a working gun is only a small fraction of really understanding longrifles; it takes a lifetime of study and understanding to really appreciate the schools of building and why they are important. 
Just some thoughts,
Ron
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Offline Cotton1of2

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2020, 01:59:35 AM »
Thanks to everyone that responded to my question. I’ve learned the answer and I’ll leave this here if anyone wonders in the future.

Regards,
Ryan

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2020, 11:13:21 PM »
I have responded directly to Ryan, but for general information,  that was a very early rifle made when I knew almost nothing about original rifles.   If the rifle was any school,  it was the Woodbury School inspired by the work of Hershel House.  However, I really did my own thing by polishing the steel mounts.   Really,  I guess you could say it was a Mark Elliott school, for most of my iron mounted rifles were of my own style.   There may have been more S.W. VA and E TN influence as i went along,  but they were still mostly my own style.  That is why I liked doing them.   I think my best work was done when I did what I wanted to do, not constrained by a school.   I hope I haven't upset too many people, but that's the truth.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2020, 11:28:17 PM »
YEARS ago I got a call from a man who came on the line by saying,"Get your copy
of Kindig's book and tell me what School your locks are from".I told him I had no
idea and maybe it  was Sunday School or Reform School. :).I have seen Kindig's
book but was never that interested in getting one.

Bob Roller

10 September 2020.My personal interest in muzzle loading rifles has never FOCUSED on the
raise carved highly ornamented brass trimmed long rifle but it was and is on the rifles that
Major Roberts wrote about.The Northeastern caplock rifles have held my interest and the
cream of the crop to me are the American Schuetzen rifles most made by German,Swiss and
Austrian gunmakers and their descendants.Accuracy at ranges beyond that of a round ball
and the accessories it takes to keep one of these working has always been a fascination to me.
  I DO like the Southern long rifles and the simplicity and the economic conditions that brought
them into being.Those conditions were told to me by my maternal grandfather who was born in
1873 and died in 1972.He told me of buying 10 cents worth of black powder and usually a few
caps came with it and that was the meat getter be it small game or deer.The 10 cents was hard to get.
I did not come into the Appalachian culture until I was 10 years old and right after Pearl Harbor**
my mother and I moved into a German area of Chicago and stayed there until early 1946 and
when we moved to West Virginia into a culture that seemed to thrive on stupidity and had NO
use at all for a 10 year old that spoke German as easy as English.That was the culture of my
grandfather and grandmother.They had 9 children and all of them got away from it and only my
mother came back. :o.
** My father bailed out and went to Wisconsin and remarried.We had no contact with him.
Bob Roller
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 01:53:55 AM by Bob Roller »

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2020, 11:58:52 PM »
I have responded directly to Ryan, but for general information,  that was a very early rifle made when I knew almost nothing about original rifles.   If the rifle was any school,  it was the Woodbury School inspired by the work of Hershel House.  However, I really did my own thing by polishing the steel mounts.   Really,  I guess you could say it was a Mark Elliott school, for most of my iron mounted rifles were of my own style.   There may have been more S.W. VA and E TN influence as i went along,  but they were still mostly my own style.  That is why I liked doing them.   I think my best work was done when I did what I wanted to do, not constrained by a school.   I hope I haven't upset too many people, but that's the truth.

  Well said Mark.

     Tim

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2020, 04:29:24 AM »
When you make a gun for yourself, it's your project. You can decide what makes you happiest to build, whether it be a bench copy of an original, a piece that you make out of your imagination, and anything in between.

Because this is a hobby/profession for historical arms, many, if not most of the ALR, hold to traditional patterns and schools.

It's totally fine if someone wants to make a mixed-school gun. But they should be aware that presenting a mixed gun in a traditional arena may be disappointing, to say the least. I have one of these I made in my gun cabinet, way in the back, where I hope no one will ever see it.

I like to make guns that are my design, but I use a vocabulary of traditional elements that could have actually been together in the 18th of 19 centuries. Example, a mixed Dutch and German arm. It might have barrel and castings imported from Germany, Belgium or Holland, and by using sugar maple for the stock, I can imagine the piece being made by a European trained smith in the colonies. Be it Virginia, Pennsylvania or New York, each locale has its own flavors of gun style and culture.

Consider the concept of the gun as an adventure in history. Doing the research becomes fun, and then addictive. If you build one gun, you're going to build more.

Have fun with it.

Tom


























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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2020, 08:24:51 PM »
 I think the different  gunsmith schools are much better understood today than it was just a few years ago. Having much of the information virtually at you fingertips is a luxury most of us have that wasn’t even remotely possible just a few short years ago. And even revered modern gunsmiths of fifty or sixty years ago produced work with mixed styles, and schools.
 I well remember a day some years ago, when an old friend whose hunting the rugged mountains of Northern California, had morphed into hunting the crowded aisles of local gun shows, gave me a call. He asked if I knew of a modern muzzleloading gunsmith named Hacker Martin. I said well of course, he one of the best known modern smiths of longrifles. He said he had just picked up a longrifle with Hackers stamp on the barrel, and would I like to come over and take a look at it. I almost burned the tires off my old truck getting to his place. He unrolled an old blanket, and displayed his prize. I was stunned. I was expecting beautiful pristine reproductions of classic longrifle construction, but that was not the case. You see my contact with antique longrifles via the internet, and better than original reproduction, on this website, and others, ruined the moment.
 Hackers work was heavily carved much deeper than originals, and the parts were’nt quite a match, the stock had turned black over the years hiding most of the curl, and the engraving was of average quality.
 We have raised the bar so high that even the average hobby builder today easily spots the problems with the Bedford perfectly fitted out in traditional Bedford furniture, and lock, but stocked up in another style. Or the Roman nosed stock with classic Lancaster patchbox, and furniture.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Clint

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2020, 05:03:27 AM »
To better understand schools of design we need to put ourselves back in time. That artistic styling evolved locally and stuck is the result of tight communities and limited opportunities to travel. Nobody had a day off in the eighteenth century. I am reminded of a friend who watched the troops marching home after WW 1 from his front porch. Wilmar lived in Old Mystic CT which is about six miles north of Noank, where I live. Wilmar's father owned a sawmill in O-M and once a week Wilmar was given the job of delivering four timbers that were sixteen inches, sided by thirty feet long. They would rig the timbers to two seperate axles with wooden spoked wheels and he would drive a pair of big Belgians from Old Mystic to Noank shipyard. The delivery would take the whole day, early to late and Wilmar would get home in time to go to bed. That sort of thing was "frequent flying" for 1918, imagine what it was like in eastern PA where gunsmiths were actually farmers up front and gunsmiths on the side.

Offline Panzerschwein

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2020, 01:14:01 AM »
Judging people too harshly about their rifle can push even more people away from this dwindling hobby.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 02:05:47 AM by Panzerschwein »

cheyenne

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2020, 05:07:21 AM »
 :)I have always admired the banner rifle, simple eloquence, a working man's rifle. The lines of the rifle are pleasing, and carvings would detract from it's beauty.  Don't get me wrong, I love the various "schools" with each having their own architecture, and fine examples of the master's skill, but the simple "mountain" rifle speaks to me.

Offline rtadams

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2020, 05:18:14 PM »
9-10-20

Mark,

I agree with you.
I could not have expressed my thoughts on this subject any better.
It has been a long time since I have corresponded with you.
I wish you the best in your endeavors.

Best Regards,

Robert

Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2020, 05:28:46 PM »
  Panzerswein...I agree with your statement...it reminds me of my first rendezvous...we all had to pass the judgement of the Bushway (sp ) before intering the camp...I was nervous...told me everything about what was wrong with my set up..as he stood their in his H.C. correct outfit. With the sunglasses, tennis shoes an wrist watch.
What I'm getting at is WE all started as a newbie..being H.C. correct is very important...but DON'T lose your own creativity in the long run. But if I was doing this for a living ( gun building )
I would be as close to a certain school as the customer is paying for...Oldtravler

Offline GANGGREEN

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2020, 12:58:55 AM »
I just like to state that I've always appreciated the rifle on the ALR banner as well. Admittedly, I've always been a fan of Southwest Virginia and Eastern Tennessee guns.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2020, 02:04:24 AM »
Interesting concepts. I built one gun, maybe years ago, in the 70's. It was a plain-Jane caplock, iirc, likely used TC parts. LOL.
That rifle used on at least 3 different barrels in testing, a .36 deep buttoned Hall Sharon barrel bought from him in 1975, along with
a deep grooved .45 and normal depth .50 by Les Bauska, bought from him in his shop, also in 1975, on the same road trip to Kalispel,
 Montana. 13 hours straight driving to get there, both the barrels and 13 hours home to Surrey, B.C.,  then I slept for 12-14 or so hours.
Long time ago. I have not had the desire to build another rifle, however enjoy immensely, 2 rifles that my bro built.
Daryl

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Rifle on ALR Banner?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2020, 05:15:32 AM »
.... enjoy immensely, 2 rifles that my bro built.

Why build when you have a bro like that?
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.