Southern Horn

[Tim Crosby]

I still have a lot to learn. I.E. twisted staples, the judges at Dixion's didn't think much of them at all and I never really thought about it until they gave me some reasoning why not to have them.

 Tim C.

Tim,

I wouldn't say Never, but I have not seen a square twisted staple on an old powder horn.  That doesn't mean that it didn't happen, only that I haven't seen one.  I have looked at lots and lots of old powder horns and see only plain staples.  I have assumed for some years now that the square twisted staples are a modern concoction.  I was telling this to a new horner at the CLA show.  He wasn't buying it until I said that the staple is never seen once a strap is installed, so any decorative purpose is lost and a square twisted staple would only make the staple wear through the strap faster.  I use round stock staples only on my horns.

Another thing that a lot of guys do is they make the staples from stock that is to large in diameter.


Randy Hedden

 That is what I have been told but after I had put the staple on. From now on they will be from round srock and you are right it needs to be thinner.
  Lots of good info here.

 Thanks, Tim C.

[Randy Hedden]

With that said, how many hornsmiths  in 18th or 19th century America were available taking specific orders to their customer's desires?  I know there were horns made for British officer's, there were factory made horns produced in the 19th century, there were the numerous home made affairs. Is there documentation that this was standard practice to place orders for specifics? I look at the gun trade and while I see a gunsmith might do a few different things on his guns, they all have common themes and most of the time are cut from a standard pattern.

In short, how much was the customer involved in a powder horn purchase if it was not self made?

Thanks
James

James,

Just an assumption here, but I would think that someone going to a horner's shop to buy a powder horn would have seen ready made powder horns "on the shelf" to choose from.  I don't know that the government had any stringent standards for the thousands of powder horns that they contracted for, but I would suspect that they were all basicly alike except for minor differences like the style of the butt plug, the stopper, etc.  In short, I don't believe that the average man went to the horners shop and specifically ordered a horn to his liking.  Other than choosing one of a smaller or larger size he probably didn't have much choice.

The horners of the 18th century made all kinds of objects from horn and most likely had a ahop full of made up horn items for his customers to choose from.  I would think that powder horns were no different.

As always, perhaps someone with specific information about this will chime in??.

Randy Hedden

[Brian]

Okay, I want to make sure I understand this correctly.

So would it be correct/acceptable to have the strap go around the horn (and through the staple) and the main purpose of the staple was to force the strap to hang in such a way that it positioned the horn as desired?  Or is it "wrong" to have the strap go around the horn - and it should only loop through the staple?

[Randy Hedden]

Okay, I want to make sure I understand this correctly.

So would it be correct/acceptable to have the strap go around the horn (and through the staple) and the main purpose of the staple was to force the strap to hang in such a way that it positioned the horn as desired?  Or is it "wrong" to have the strap go around the horn - and it should only loop through the staple?

Brian,

That is a good question.

Randy Hedden

[Brian]

This is a good thread.  Some interesting concepts on the strap attachment and placement being discussed.  Personally, I like the way Randy said he has done them with the strap going around the horn and using the staple more to to position the strap rather than take the strain.  It only makes sense if you think about it.  It’s much stronger.  For example if you snagged the horn strap on something while running (or whatever) you could do a lot of damage to the horn if the strap was only attached to the staple.  You could crack the horn, bend the staple, tear the staple out of the horn, or split the horn wide open – or all of the above.   

I’m not sure how much pressure that staple would take just being hooked into the wall of the horn.  That’s not to say you couldn’t do some damage even with the strap wrapped around the horn (and only positioned by the staple) if you yanked it hard enough, but I’d think the odds of the horn surviving at least most “accidents” without serious damage would be better with the strap right around the horn.

I imagine it was likely done both ways off and on, but I’m not sure which would be considered the “correct” way to do it.  Perhaps it varied with different areas, schools, or styles.  I’ve got a couple of horns planned for this coming winter, and it would be nice to know what would be the most appropriate method to plan on using – particularly for the F&I era which I'm shooting for.  I’ve just ordered Mr. Grinsdale’s book as well, so perhaps that will shed some light on it.

We have several members of the Horner’s Guild on the forum I think – you gentlemen care to jump into this one?

Unless I hear different though, I’m going with the way Randy described.  Sounds a lot stronger to me. 

[Canute Rex]

A few comments:

First, sweet looking horn.

On the subject of staples: The staple in the plug is generally subjected to a side load, so it is in shear. The wood has to fail in compression for the staple to move and fall out. In the neck of the horn, if the strap is only through the staple, then the staple is generally being pulled out and relies only on the metal/wood friction. Unless the horner could get inside and clinch the points of the staple I'd call this an iffy situation. If the staple is just positioning the strap as it wraps around the horn then once again it is in shear. Then again, with a rough wrought iron staple the friction might be quite sufficient. I'd be less sure about a modern steel staple unless the maker deliberately textured it.

On soldiers carrying horns: From everything I've read the carrying of horns was something that occurred among the militias or committees of safety. Even they were equipped with cartridge boxes when possible. Regular soldiers carried cartridge boxes. I read an account by a veteran British soldier who related a battle where he fired twelve shots and considered it an amazing and unprecedented number.

Oh, and hornsmiths? Not to be a nitpicker (but I am), the suffix "smith" refers to one who smites, or hits, his work. A blacksmith smites the black metal, iron. I have seen the word "smith" tagged on to a dozen different occupations as an indicator of "worker in" and it makes me grind my teeth. I think that "quiltsmith" was the worst. It brought me an image of some fool beating on a flaming duvet. I suppose I should just shrug and get a life.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Brian, yes.  Relative to wear straps were attached, I believe that evidence of horns with throat staples will show that straps show wear on some horns and some do not indicating that those were attached to the staple only.  This may simply be more of an individual matter of preference or because that's how his daddy did.  I don't think this is either right or wrong.  Certainly, the horn builder probably envisioned that it would be carried as designed, but in the end, the customer dictated what worked best for him and attached to a strap accordingly. 
In regards to staple attachment to the horn.  Awhile back a few of us (yes, by the way, we are guild members) had a short thread discussing the proper method of attachment.  It has been found that as a result of a couple of our senior guild members either restoring or taking old a few horns apart that staples used in base plugs and in the throat areas were, indeed, clinched on the inside.   I believe the horns in question were screwtips at the time.  Now certainly one can reasonably deduce that this was an acceptable practice within the horn building trades?  Probably.  Attaching a staple to a base plug would have been done prior to affixing to the horn.  For the staple attached to the throat area, holes would have been drilled through the horn, the staple inserted and then a diameter rod of appropriate diameter put inside the spout hole to force the staple portions to bend, or 'clinch'.  When done properly, this will not come out when strapping is attached.

Canute, you forgot about 'gunsmith' 

Below is a picture of a powder horn demonstrating with staples attached for right side carry despite the fact that the horn is a naturally left side carry horn.
Gary