Getting started

[Paul Harrop]

Hello all,

First let me say thank you to all who post here, before creating this account I spent a lot of time reading. I'm sure many more hours will be spent doing the same.

I have never built a rifle before. Truth be told, I have never even fired a muzzleloader. I have fallen down the rabbit hole of these traditional American rifles and want to get started into making them, though.

It started with me needing a muzzleloader to add the muzzleloader deer season to my hunting calendar. I started looking at modern inline "muzzleloaders", and thought that was all but cheating and not something I wanted to do. I have always enjoyed crafting and woodwork, so I started looking for kits. While researching the kits, I came across the old film from Colonial Williamsburg with Wallace Gusler, and I was hooked on the idea of using traditional techniques. I started reading more and more, and discovered the rifles of John Armstrong from Emmitsburg, a few miles away from my home here in Maryland.

I'd love to craft rifles in the Emmitsburg school tradition. I know I have a long way to go to get there.

As an introduction to this craft, I am considering buying one of the mass produced Traditions kits. Leaning toward the Kentucky Flintlock, if I can find one in stock. Is that a good plan? What would you tell me to do to get started? I watched the video series of building a Traditions Hawken percussion rifle that the NMLRA just put out. I am comfortable with the tools and techniques used to finish that kit.

Do you think one of those kits is a good set of training wheels?

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Stoner creek]

For a few hundred bucks more you can buy yourself a kit that will give you a lot more satisfaction. I have no issues with the kits that you previously mentioned but you’re going to end up with something that looks like an over the counter gun when you’re finished and you’re probably not going to be overly proud to show and carry it. Jim Chambers flintlocks and Jim Kibler provide a more traditional style rifle and you have an amazing number of makers and tutorials on this forum to help guide you along the way.

[smylee grouch]

Stoner   creek makes a good point. You can assemble a Kibler kit in short order or build a Chambers kit or a Cabin Creek kit and end up with a gun that you will enjoy and be proud of. I don't think any of the mentioned kit makers has an Armstrong style kit but they all sell quality with Chambers having the most options.

[borderdogs]

Hi Paul,
Welcome to the forum. Take a look at some of the videos on building rifles, also check out books on the topic. I built a rifle back in the late 70's early 80's then didnt build another on until last year so I was a beginner too. American Pioneer Video  http://americanpioneervideo.com/ is one site you can check out that sell videos  about building rifles. Stoner pointed out places where kits are available but there are others as well.  It sounds like you  know what you like, I did too and I think that helps to remain focused.  I found this site to be very helpful when I built my last rifle which was a Hawken full stock in flint a kit I purchased from  Pecatonica River  http://www.longrifles-pr.com/

The people on this site will help you along the process
Best of luck
Rob

[Tim Ault]

If you want to try to follow that Areas style I would go with a precarved stock of that style from Pecatonica river with just the barrel channel and rod hole done . And then research and get the suitable lock , barrel and other furniture for it . Yes it will take longer to complete and you make make some mistakes along the way but it will be something a lot more like what your looking for . Do a lot of reading and looking at pictures of original guns , ask lots of questions . Assembling a rifle from a precarved stock really isn't "hard"  but it does take some knowledge in wood and metal working .

http://www.longrifles-pr.com/armstrong.shtml

[Stoner creek]

You can enroll in one of Mike Brooks’s Kibler kit classes at Friendship this summer and with a little work on your part go home that week with a finished gun. The important part is that our aforementioned kits feature top quality “hot rod” parts. Far superior in quality, accuracy and historical correctness.

[Marcruger]

You have received some great advice here. 

I would make an alternate suggestion - I would encourage you to obtain a longrifle and shoot it some before building a rifle. You'll know a lot more about what you like, dislike, and their operation before you start on a build.  If you keep an eye on the for-sale section, there are good deals to be had.  A nicely finished Tip Curtis gun just sold for $1300 that would be a keeper and companion for a long time. 

There is a Harrison/Bergmann rifle in the for-sale section right now, for sale by our esteemed "Stoner Creek" (Wayne).  It looks to me to be a solid value, and I cannot fathom why it has not sold for the $1500 asking price.  Of course, if Wayne suggested that it would look like he is tooting his own horn (not his style). 

If you buy a good rifle and shoot it a while, you'll be ahead when you build. Just my two cents worth. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Steeltrap]

My "experience"....and I use that word loosely!

In 2010 I built my first. (Doesn't count the TC Hawken kit back in 1980...not a "real" build I freely admit!)  My 2010 build was a 50 caliber flintlock pistol. I followed nothing, read nothing, and used some internet pictures and attempted to follow some advice from this forum. What I was going for was a 50 Cal Flintlock that I could use in Pa. for the flintlock season hunting. The use of a pistol was a fairly new regulation then.

My pistol was big, ugly, clunky.....but it shot fine. I listened to some advice here, but frankly didn't get all the knoweldge that was attempted to to be conveyed to me.

Then in 2018 I decided to take a stab at rifle building. The first piece of advice I listened to was buying the book "The Gunsmith of Grenville" from TOTW and I read it. Reading that, along with reading post on this web site really opened my eyes to what it takes.

So, I decided to build a Leman style rife as that looked to be the easiest one to build. And it was a learning curve!!  Now, know that I have a disability that has zapped strength from my left arm, and gives me sudden onsets of fatigue. So, the most I could work at any give stretch was 3 hours....with breaks. But I figured I have 300+ hours in my Leman. No patchbox. The rifle is just fine for me and I've taken one doe with it.

The build of my rifle then had me looking hard at my pistol, and being objective about it, I tore it down and re-did it to look and feel more like an early 1800 flint pistol. It's not perfect, but I like it and with the revised trigger, it shoots great!!

So, if you have the time to commit to a much longer process, then buy a TOTW or another providers rifle kit. Know that up front there are a few things you really need to know. For example, pre-carved and pre-inletted are two different things. The bad part of a pre-inletted stock (even tho it may appear to be less work....and this does not include a Kibler) is the carvings may not allow your pieces to match up. And you go thru more work "fixing" than if you just got a pre-carved. BTW, I purchased a pre-carve stock and still had to remove 50% of the wood.

So, as the old saying goes, "time is money."  If you want to learn...or "trial by fire" then buy a kit. It's not a bad thing to do.....just know what your getting into. If you start today and apply yourself, you may have it done by fall. If you want to spend less time yet have a very nice build....then buy the Kibler.

MHO

[mikeyfirelock]

I would strongly suggest getting a copy of “Recreating the American Long Rifle”  or “The Gunsmith of Grenville County.”   Both are excellent, although the latter goes into more detail .   You will have a better idea of what building entails after reading either of these.   I would certainly check around in your area and see if there’s a muzzleloading club, or better yet someone who builds/ has built a rifle, and would be willing to give some help/ advice.
The advice about getting and using one of the higher end kits is good advice.     Whatever you do, start by getting either ( or both) of the aforementioned books and reading them.

[kudu]

I would also strongly recommend a Kibler kit...

You get the highest quality parts and a minimal fitting of the stock and parts to complete the gun.
And when your done you'll have something to be proud to show anyone as long as you follow his youtube videos you cant go wrong for a first and maybe only gun.

And No I Never built one, or own one.
 Butt Ive seen enough started and completed to have this opinion!!

[jm190]

Hi Paul,
   Welcome to the forum!  I'd like to offer my experience as a new builder. I was bitten by the bug a couple of years ago and started by building a Traditions kit. I don't regret it but it was, IMHO, not the best use of my $$ and time. The wood and metal parts are not the best quality, the architecture is fictional at best and what I ended up with was functional and that is all. I bought my first real kit from Pecatonica and I was much happier with the outcome. After two more builds from planks I support other people's suggestions to start with a Kibler kit. I cannot over state the quality of these kits in regards to the lock, metal parts, wood, architecture and ease of assembly. In fact I'm building one right now. You still have some minor woodworking to do and you still have to prepare the metal and wood for finishing. One other incentive to start with a Kibler kit is the cost is only a few hundred dollars more than kits from the main stream suppliers like Track of The Wolf and Muzzleloaders Builder Supply. I will also echo the suggestions to purchase and read  "The Gunsmith of Grenville County" along with "Recreating the American Longrifle" before you put tools to wood and metal.

Hope this helps!
John

[oldtravler61]

  Hi Paul,  Well you have been given excellent advice. My opinion is like other's. I would go with the Kibler kit. One you get a very easy kit to put together. Second it is historically accurate. Third they are tack drivers.
  Now the important part. You should, if you ever want to sell it. You should get at least the value of the Kibler  kit price back...!!  Maybe more.  But that is up to your skill level. Now the Traditions ah...not so much. They are a shooter but that is it.
  Now I have built a few kits in my day. Have helped put two Kibler kits together for friends. Even if you have two left thumbs. I cannot see how anyone could not put his kit together in a week. With no help at all.  Just following his video.
But at last it is your decision.    Oldtravler

[kudu]

Yep those Kibler guns have good resale aaalot better than most.
Period correct too and accurate. Jim painstakingly copied good original guns.

[Paul Harrop]

Thank you all for the great advice. It may not have been what my wallet wanted to hear, but what I needed to hear.

I aspire to someday forge a barrel myself with period correct forge and tools, and to select a plank of curly sugar maple from which I will massage a stock. I want to cast brass and then beautifully engrave it.

I am years and years away from that.

I think I will save a bit more for one of the Kiblers or the like, versus the Traditions. If I am going to do something, I like to do it right. Your guidance and correction from my first inclination of a plan is greatly appreciated.

[vanu]

I would like to add to Kudus excellent point regarding period correctness of Jim Kibler's products.

One thing I have seen over many years is when beginning the journey of creating an American Longrifle often it is undertaken without ever having seen/held an original example. Working from photos and even drawings can be very difficult unless you have some familiarity with original specimens. I would offer the observation that with the Kibler rifles you will be working on either a wonderful 18th century rifle representative of the Revolutionary War era or a great 19th century Southern Mountain Rifle; both of which come extremely close to what you would experience during an examination of antiques; the shape/feel/ proportions of an original is inherent with these kits - I believe, as others have stated - the end product will be a source of pride and at the same time providing you with a basis for developing an aesthetic to achieve your long term goals in rifle making.

Bruce