Author Topic: Seth Kinman rifle  (Read 2390 times)

Offline Hungry Horse

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Seth Kinman rifle
« on: January 27, 2021, 09:05:00 PM »
 On a recent YouTube video I stumbled onto, an auction house was featuring the rifle carried by Seth Kinman. I have seen many early photographs of good old Seth aping the camera of yet another budding photographer, clutching his thoroughly thrashed longrifle. But, have never seen any real detailed closeup pictures in color. This video was very enlightening.
 It never occurred to me that this wreck of a rifle might actually have enough hints left of its original provenance to place it in a style, place, and maybe even time period. But, I may have been wrong. I watched the video several times, and after discounting 90% of old Seth’s history of the rifle, made several observations of my own. Most of these observations have roots in the incredible wealth of knowledge provided on this forum.
 The most obvious feature to me was the grease hole in the buttstock in place of a real patchbox. I originally discounted this feature because I’ve seen several old rebuilt guns with grease holes, that have no Southern roots. But it got me looking a lot closer. I noticed the guns double set triggers had a rear trigger with a very pronounced curl, and a straight front trigger. Now I really started looking, and what I notice was the double hook triggerguard was hand forged, and likely got it forward fingerhook as an add on, long after its original construction. The lock was a later addition after the was rebuilt, so it gave me no other clues. But, as the video got to it end, and the narrator mentioned the forstock was broken off at some time in its life. The camera panned the “broken” forstock and revealed a recess where it had a muzzle cap inletted. So, I can only assume this was a 3/4 length stocked mountain rifle from Western North Carolina, or Eastern Tennessee. What do the rest of you think?

  Hungry Horse

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2021, 11:43:02 PM »
 I’m sure there is a bunch of misinformation written about this gun. Heck, old Seth couldn’t keep track of all the unlikely stories he told about it. But, the close up video was a real eye opener for me. There is no doubt in my mind this gun was built in the Southeastern mountains somewhere.

  Hungry Horse
 

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 12:09:13 AM »
I thought the "story" behind the rifle was that Kinman got it from a Kentuckian who was at the Battle of New Orleans and used it to shoot British soldiers from behind cotton bales. I also thought Kinman said sometime later he had the gun restocked. Shelby Gallien

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2021, 02:10:34 AM »
Kinman was a self promoter and something of a charlatan. The rifle is interesting and I have a photo of him and his rifle around here somewhere. I'll look around for it and post it if I can find it. I think it is the one where he is presenting a long horn chair to some personality. I bought it at the Samoa Cook House in Samoa, CA a long time ago up on the redwood country.
Dick

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2021, 06:13:52 AM »
 Its my opinion that Seth Kinman set the stage for all mountain men being pictured with wild hair, beards, and sudo Indian attire. Fredrick Remington bought his side show hook, line, and sinker. Buffalo Bill also adopted outrageous costumes reminiscent of old Seth. His gun was indeed restocked, but I would strongly suspect it wasn’t done by a gunsmith. So, likely it was a copy of the original.

 Hungry Horse

Offline tooguns

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2021, 04:22:15 PM »
I have a few,









This was on liveauctioneers, sold for $14.000 Hope this helps
It is best to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove any and all doubt....

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2021, 05:19:31 PM »
I'm the one doing most of the talking in the video and have examined the gun in detail. You can email RIAC and request high resolution photos if you'd like. As I laid out in the description for that rifle, Kinman definitely told a lot of tall tales about himself and the rifle. Per Kinman's story, he personally restocked the rifle after the original stock was broken by a grizzly.

Full catalog description:
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/75/111/seth-kinman-mountain-man-rifle

Excerpt:
Quote
The nearly four foot long swamped octagon barrel of this massive rifle has a bone blade front sight and traditional winged notch rear sight and is marked "Seth Kinman Old C[otton] B[ale]" (bracketed areas illegible) on the long barrel tang which extends back nearly to the buttplate, "Gave Many an Englishman the Belly ake(sic)" (lower right flat) and "From off the Cotton Bails(sic) at New Orleans" (upper flat) and "Jan. the 8 1815 Old Kentuck" on the left flat. The furniture is all iron. The spurred trigger guard encloses double set triggers. The current lock and the iron butt and toe plates appear to have been added to the rifle later in Kinman's life post-1876 based on photographs. According to Seth Kinman's (1815-1888) own tall tales, his rifle was used by a Kentucky rifleman under the command of General Andrew Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans the year he was born to kill British General Edward Pakenham. The general in reality is recorded as having been killed by grape shot from the American cannons though he may have been injured by gunfire. According to Kinman's account, his father purchased the rifle in 1831 from a man named Bridges from Kentucky who told him the tale of his own father using it at New Orleans. Kinman inherited the rifle when his father died 1839 and used it the rest of his life. He said the rifle was originally stocked in walnut but the original stock was damaged by a grizzly that chased him up a tree, and he subsequently restocked it himself. He reportedly crossed through the Rocky Mountains multiple times on foot with this rifle. His rifle, which he also called Old Cotton Blossum, is shown in many of the photographs of Kinman from the 1860s into the 1870s. Close examination of the photographs shows the stock being steadily modified over the years as it was damaged. It was also originally flintlock but was converted to percussion by the time it appeared in photographs. The current length of the forend can be seen in the photograph of him with then presidential candidate and Ohio Governor Rutherford B. Hayes in September 1876. The buttplate, toe plate, and current lock plate were apparently added late, reportedly by Kinman in the period of use. The original lock is clearly roughly fit in a damaged lock mortise in many of the period photographs, and a new lock was likely fitted late in his life to help keep the gun in one piece and/or functioning. . .
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 05:32:18 PM by Seth I. »
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline tooguns

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2021, 05:21:35 PM »
DESCRIPTION
Historic Documented Southern Style Percussion Long Rifle Inscribed "From the Cotton Bails at New Orleans" Once Owned by Famed 19th Century Hunter, Pioneer, and Mountain Man Seth Kinman  Dr. Alan Maki, in the article noted below, indicates this rifle was hung in Kinman's museum until the museum was sold by the family in 1893 and then remained in the family for several generations until he purchased it from Kinman's great-great granddaughter. The swamped octagon barrel of this massive rifle is marked "Seth Kinman Old C[otton] B[ale]" (bracketed areas illegible) on the long barrel tang which extends back nearly to the buttplate, "Gave Many an Englishman the Belly ake(sic)" (lower right flat) and "From off the Cotton Bails(sic) at New Orleans" (upper flat) and "Jan. the 8 1815 Old Kentuck" (left flat). According to Seth Kinman's (1815-1888) own tall tales, his rifle was used by a Kentucky rifleman under the command of General Andrew Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans the year he was born to kill British General Edward Pakenham, and Kinman's father purchased the rifle in 1831 from a man named Bridges from Kentucky who told him the tale of his own father using it at New Orleans. Kinman inherited the rifle when his father died 1839 and used it the rest of his life. The original stock was reportedly damaged by a grizzly that chased him up a tree, and he subsequently restocked it himself. The rifle appears in many of the photographs of Kinman from the 1860s into the 1870s. The current length of the forend can be seen in the photograph of him with then presidential candidate and Ohio Governor Rutherford B. Hayes in September 1876. The buttplate, toe plate, and current lock plate were apparently added later, reportedly by Kinman in the period of use. Included with the rifle is a copy of "Seth Kinman's Manuscript and Scrapbook," "I'm a Gonna Tell Ya a Yarn," a framed display on Kinman including a photograph of him holding the rifle, and copies of articles and other texts relating to Kinman's life. Among those is the article "The Last of the Mountain Men and His Remarkable Rifle" by Dr. Alan W. Maki in the April 2018 issue of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association's "Muzzle Blasts" magazine which details Kinman's life and his rifle and also includes photographs both from the period and present showing the rifle. Kinman was born in Union County, Pennsylvania but moved with his family to Illinois in 1830. His father reportedly served alongside future president Abraham Lincoln during the Black Hawk War in 1832. In 1849, Kinman went to California to join the Gold Rush. In the early 1850s, he first started making a living supplying meat to the U.S. soldiers at Ft. Humboldt in Northern California and also supplied meat to others in the region. He is also known to have helped eliminate all of the grizzlies in the county by 1868. He also claims and was reported to have killed a number of Native Americans in California and may have been one of the perpetrators of the brutal 1860 Wiyot massacre in Humboldt County. He had gained his first fame for the chair he presented to President Buchanan in 1857 after which he reportedly received an appointment to remove Native Americans on the West Coast for $1,300 a year, and Kinman capitalized on the publicity. In 1861, Kinman was already selling chairs, photographs of himself, and other items, including scalps; playing his fiddles, telling tales, and putting on exhibitions to make a profit. He also opened up a museum to contain his artifacts. Kinman presented additional elk antler or grizzly bear chairs to Presidents Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, and Rutherford Hayes as well as Vice-President William A. Wheeler. He cultivated a friendship with President Lincoln. A drawing of Lincoln holding Kinman's rifle while accepting the gift of Kinman's chair on November 26, 1864, was sketched by Alfred Waud. Kinman reportedly spoke with Lincoln the day before his assassination and witnessed the attack at Ford's Theater. He was also part of two or more of Lincoln's funeral processions and gathered attention for his distinctive attire and rifle. Per the New York Times, "Much attention was attracted to Mr. Kinman, who walked in a full hunting suit of buckskin and fur, rifle on shoulder. Mr. Kinman, it will be remembered, presented to Mr. Lincoln some time ago a chair made of California elk-horn, and continuing his acquaintance with him, it is said, enjoyed quite a long conversation with him the very day before the murder." While in the East, he had many of the well-known portraits of him and his chairs taken by Mathew Brady's famous studio. Despite his disheveled appearance and tattered animal skin clothes, he was actually a successful businessman. He died as a result of complications from a self-inflicted accidental gunshot wound to the leg and subsequent amputation in 1888.  Manufacturer: Kentucky Model: Percussion BBL: 47 1/2 inch octagon Stock: hardwood Gauge: 68 Finish: brown Grips:  Serial Number: NSN  Class: Antique  Condition: OG - POOR- major or minor parts replaced; major replacement parts required and extensive restoration needed; metal deeply pitted; principal lettering, numerals and design obliterated, wood badly scratched, bruised, cracked or broken; mechanically inoperative; generally undesirable as a collectors firearm in its present state.
CONDITION
See Description
BUYER'S PREMIUM
21.5%
Documented Southern Style Percussion Long Rifle

« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 06:21:28 PM by tooguns »
It is best to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove any and all doubt....

Offline Einsiedler

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2021, 06:39:02 PM »
Certainly not going to say this piece wasn’t at New Orleans. Very possibly was.

But the majority of Adair’s Kentuckians arrived at Chalmette, weaponless. Much to the chagrin of Old Hickory. (Remembering his comment concerning His disbelief!  “I never met a Kentuckian with out a rifle, deck of cards, and a jug of whiskey” or something along those lines.).

I seem to remember the unit being split and a portion placed as reserves for Carrolls command between two of the artillery batteries on the Rodriguez canal. And the other portion being issued some of the Spanish escopetas  ( the ones from the Cabildo of dubious quality) and maybe placed up on the Chef Menteur road(maybe?) as well as a big batch being placed on the West bank of the Mississippi with Morgan. Where things went a whole lot better for the British. And not for the Kentuckians.

Seems like this rifle would have to have been one of the few that actually did arrive from the Blue Grass. And would have to have been with Carrolls command to have got a shot at Ol’ Eddie P. So I suppose it is a possibility.

Just my own foggy memory rambling. But it makes for a darn interesting story.


Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2021, 06:57:02 PM »
 ::) ::)... As we would be apt to say over here in the mountains,...... "Don't see a thing that makes me think t'was made in these parts",..... (East Tennessee and North Careliner... )... regards,.... CCF

Offline tooguns

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2021, 08:03:21 PM »
I seem to remember that this rifle was restocked by Seth Kinman himself. I don't recall where I read that. Hopefully somebody can clarify this.
It is best to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove any and all doubt....

Offline Seth Isaacson

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2021, 08:25:22 PM »
I seem to remember that this rifle was restocked by Seth Kinman himself. I don't recall where I read that. Hopefully somebody can clarify this.

See my post above.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline tooguns

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Re: Seth Kinman rifle
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2021, 10:14:52 PM »
I seem to remember that this rifle was restocked by Seth Kinman himself. I don't recall where I read that. Hopefully somebody can clarify this.

See my post above.

That's were I saw it!
It is best to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove any and all doubt....