Old Mystery Gun #1

[Jefferson58]

Hi Folks:

I figured you folks could help with this better than anyone, so here goes...

My friend has two old guns that his sister had. I am going to put each in its own post so they can be viewed separately. I (he) would greatly appreciate any help in identifying these and possibly some ballpark number as to their worth. No hard numbers, I know, just a rough estimate for insurance purposes.

The first is a match lock that appears (to me) to be oriental in origin from the engraving in the brass trim. I am including several photos in hopes of some help identifying it. The barrel is 39, 7/8" long, tapering from 1, 1/8" at the breech to 5/8" near the muzzle. It measures to .4988" inside at the muzzle. 4 pins secure the barrel through holes with decorative surrounds in brass. I am not sure what wood the stock is made from, but it is a "cheek stock" and quite short. The finish is quite "reddish" in hue.

All furniture is brass with a small amount of copper trim. There is a lot of engraving in the brass, and a curious hole, trimmed in brass, that runs through the stock in front of the wrist area.

The lock and trigger function fine. If there was a pan cover, it is missing. The stock is in great shape with no breaks or cracks. The ramrod is intact, but the tip has been broken off and is missing.

The gun is in  really good shape for its age. The barrel has some rust of course, but then this thing looks pretty old. Any ideas?

Thanks for your help.

Jeff Bibb

[TPH]

Matchlock from India, they are interesting.

[Stophel]

"Tanegashima".  Japanese.

[TPH]

   I like Chris's reply better than mine. Good job.

[mr. no gold]

Japanese matchlock rifle of fine quality. It has nice inlays and a long barrel. Figure that this was made in the late 1700s as it is quite ornamental. It's a great piece and would bring top dollar for whatever these are worth today. The rosewood stock is in fine condition and it stiil has its ramrod. Very nice! Thanks for showing it around.
Come to think of it there is a website associated with samurai swords that deals with these matchlocks and they bring good money in Japan. Try that to see if you can find a comparative valued gun. good luck.
Dick

[Stophel]

I found these guys here www.japanese-guns.com

They used these well into the 19th century.

[eseabee1]

jap matchlock for sure

[Feltwad]

Japeanese  Snap matchlock they command a high price here in the UK.
Feltwad

[stuart cee dub]

 A nice example of a Japanese matchlock .
While it's shoot at your own risk ,the Japanese barrel makers made very good quality barrel.
Do check to see if it has a load down the bore ,a good friend of mine was given one by his dad .
Guess what we found at the breech ?
The powder we found was grayish ,the ball was not patched.
The barrel was thick walled ,finely finished, inlaid with both copper and brass ,polished and smooth inside and out .It  was about 53 caliber.Made about 1805 or so and signed.

There is an interesting book about the  Japanese  gun makers and how they were controlled during the Tokugawa Shogunate called ''Giving up the Gun'' .
The samurai  knew something about controlling peasants and reserved the limited use and the making  of guns to themselves .

[mr. no gold]

More on the matchlock: if you remove that barrel you should find Konji characters on the bottom flat (or close at hand) which may give the year and the maker. Most were made on the Tanegashima Island upon which the armory was located, although it is likely that they were made elsewhere as well. Handguns were not as common, but were made.
Not sure which shogunate, (Tokugawa maybe), forbade the general useage of firearms after the expulsion of the the Portuguese traders in the 1600s (The Portuguese had shown the Japanese how to make guns and powder). Japan became a closed country and remained so until 1870. As a consequence, the ignition system of their guns was stuck in the 1500s with the matchlock. These arms were used in local warfare over the years but were denied to the general population. A peasant could then kill a samurai.
Occasionally, you will see percussion versions, and once in a great while, one that is a bolt action, cartridge gun. Many people collect these today whereas such pieces were scoffed at in the mid 1900s. Temples are known to house these arms, many highly ornamented, alongside grand samurai swords having 'treasure blades'.
Dick

[Tanselman]

You may get an idea of price if you do a search on the GunBroker site, searching for "japanese" or "matchlock." Several have been/are listed there, from damaged ones starting at about $400, to one decent one listed at around $1500 (but no bids). It is not as well decorated as this one.  Shelby Gallien

[Jefferson58]

First off, I really want to thank everyone who responded about this old matchlock. The information you all provided has been extremely helpful.

As a result of this, I was able to really narrow down the origin of this gun by looking at http://www.japaneseweapons.net/  There is a large section there about Japanese matchlocks including photos of guns from specific cities and areas in which they were built. From the photos and info. provided, it seems that this gun probably originated in the city of Sakai, near Osaka. The photos they have are almost identical in regard to the features of this gun. The Sakai craftsmen were also noted for producing very ornate guns, which certainly fits in this case.

Thanks once again. I do appreciate your help.

Jeff Bibb

[Robin Hewitt]

Hey, those inlays look a lot like the inlays on mine 

OTOH mine had the misfortune to get converted to percussion and then back again to match

[longrifle]

That is a Japanese matchlock for sure prob. made in the mid to late 1700's. It most likely was sent back after WW.2 when all firearms were confiscated. I have a friend  that has one his dad brought back after the war that was made around 1750. If you try to take it apart be very careful aand don't break anything parts are impossiable to find for those. Prices on the guns can run into the thousands that is a very good find. Congratulations.

[mr. no gold]

Wow! These photos telll a whole lot. By the iconography in the art, I would not be surprised if this had not been a temple gun at some point in time. Such guns and swords were taken by the victors after WW II and usually brought home as souvenirs. Japan has actively sought the return of such treasures for the last 50 years, at least.
A fellow in a neighboring city had two of the most important of the missing blades until not too long ago when he kindly send them back to the Japanese government. And, yes; that govenment has a list of the missisng items.
Dick

[Jefferson58]

I have to say, this is turning into quite an interesting discussion. I did not realize this gun would generate so much interest. I do appreciate all of the feedback.

So, if this is possibly a "temple" gun, how would one go about finding that out? I have done some internet research, but nothing much comes up about "temple" guns other than the You-Tube videos of ceremonial firings and so forth.

Additional information about this sort of thing would be great. I don't have any real expectations that this gun is that special, but it would be nice to find out as much as I can.

Thanks again for the help.

Jeff

[t.caster]

Looks pretty special to me! I traveled to Japan 3 times on business back in the 90s. on one visit to the Kyoto Castle museum/monument (rebuilt after WWII bombings) I came upon a top floor (6th) exibit of weapons with a couple guns similar to yours. However, I don't recall all the inlays your's has. I was struck by the plainness of them for such a rich, lavish location. They were more like our barn guns!
These were the only non-plastic toy guns I saw, except on police. Guns are outlawed!

[mr. no gold]

Jeff-You might contact the Japanese Embassy, describe the piece to one of them and ask for direction on where, who, and when you can contact to get as much history on the gun as possible. I have seen fancy matchlocks, but nothing that come close to this one.
You didn't show the barrel; does it have chasing and inlays? The widely flared muzzle is an added bonus here.
You mentioned a website that gave you a lot of information: was there an email address so that you could contact someone?
Come to think of it, I do know of a blade collector who has some of these pieces. He is the most advanced collector of these weapons that I know of. I won't be able to get a number for him for another week, if you have the time. I am sure that he could give a ton of info on the old thing.
Best-Dick