Author Topic: Looking For Recommendations On Books Or Articles On Original Knives And Sheaths  (Read 2892 times)

Offline Panzerschwein

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Looking for recommendations for books or articles on original knives and sheaths from the 19th century 1830-1860s time frame appropriate for the late fur trade and up to the Civil War period. Trying to find out more in order to select a period correct hunting knife and sheath for my Hawken rifle build.

Thanks,

-Panzer
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 08:35:22 PM by Tim Crosby »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Knives and Sheaths
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2021, 01:10:25 AM »
Try this https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=search2
Chuck Burrows work

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Type “knife” in search box. Chuck made the coolest stuff.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 01:16:46 AM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Knives and Sheaths
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2021, 02:20:25 AM »
In the "Accoutrements" series of books, there are a number of edged weapons and tools pictured in the back part of each addition...all original.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: Knives and Sheaths
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2021, 07:51:47 PM »
Dillon,

I think the penultimate reference in this case would be Jim Gordon's book, Great Knife Makers for the Early West.  It may even be "overkill" for your needs.  I ordered a copy directly from Mr. Gordon a few years ago.  It wasn't cheap.  I'll try to find the contact information if you are interested.

Other valuable and reliable references which may be more readily accessible are Dr. James Hanson's Fur Trade Cutlery Sketchbook and Carl Russell's classic, Firearms, Traps, and Tools of the Mountain Men.  The illustrations in the sketchbook are a little "cartoonish," but they are adequate, dimensions and descriptions are provided, and everything shown in it is based on an actual artifact.  Russell's book is considered a little out of date by some, in that more information has come to light since it was published, but it remains an excellent reference.

Rex Norman also wrote and illustrated articles on this very topic for Muzzleloader magazine a few years ago in his "Far West" column, one article on knives and another on sheaths.  His pen-and-ink illustrations are the best since John Barsotti, and his research is impeccable.  Again, if you're interested, I'll post the complete reference.  The last time I checked, those back issues were still available from the magazine's web store.

Seriously, the most typical or appropriate knife to fit your needs would probably be a common Sheffield butcher knife.  As far as I know, exact replicas are nonexistant, although some are similar.  Compare a Lyman Great Plains Rifle to a Brant Selb Hawken, for an analogy.  There is one Sheffield cutler, John Nowill & Sons, Ltd., who makes butcher knives to a 19th century pattern, complete with "struck" markings, but the tangs are not tapered in thickness, and these are only made with full tangs rather than the earlier-styled half tangs.  Crazy Crow sells a replica of a Kitchens butcher, with the authentic "snake" stamping, but I have not had a chance to examine one of these.

The problem, in researching fur trade and frontier knives, is not in finding information, but in weeding through it to determine the truth.  There is an awful lot of nonsense in print, and a great many knives being sold that are not completely authentic, and in some cases are pure fantasy.

Good luck in your quest!

Notchy Bob
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 08:12:53 PM by Notchy Bob »
"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline Notchy Bob

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Re: Knives and Sheaths
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2021, 09:00:05 PM »
I thought I might throw in a few pictures.

Here are some old Wilson butcher knives, from Sheffield.  The top two are real old-timers.:



These are the same knives in the same order, but left to right instead of top to bottom.  The first image shows the tops or backs of their handles.  Note the tapered tangs on the older knives:



...and the underside of one of the older knives.  Note that the older knives are fitted with slab handles (two pieces) rather than a slotted block, as on the later knife, fourth from the left in the photo above.  This does indeed leave a gap under and behind the tang, which would be unacceptable to us now, but was not considered a problem back in the day.



Here are a few Green River knives, although I don't think any of them date much before the 1870's if that:



The top three have full tangs, tapered in thickness.

The next image shows some modern reproductions:



The top one is a seven inch "Hudson Bay" butcher knife made in the 1990's by Cold Steel, using their famous Carbon V tool steel.  They marketed several models of "trade knives"... This is just one of them.  It's actually a nice knife, but just not authentic. 

Second is the current iteration of the renowned Green River butcher/trade knife, this one with a six inch blade.  This one and the Cold steel knife use brass cutler's rivets to secure the handle slabs.  An American inventor named Mellen Bray submitted several patents for tubular rivets beginning in the late 1870's and early 1880's.  The best information I have suggests rivets of this type were not used in the cutlery business until the 1890's, and simple "pins" still continued in use well into the twentieth century.  Again, this Green River butcher is a good, solid workhorse of a knife, made by the company that is a direct descendant of the original John Russell Green River Works.  It is just not authentic to the 19th century.

Third from the top is a six inch butcher from John Nowill & Sons.  Note how this one has no choil to speak of... the blade is the same width as the handle where the blade and handle merge.  This is a very early blade design feature for butcher knives.  The pin pattern is authentic to the mid 19th century, although it was certainly not the only pin pattern used.  Nowill's trademark is old, and is "struck" or stamped into the blade instead of etched.  Etching is a modern innovation.  The full tang could be authentic to the later 19th century, but the tang should still be tapered, and it isn't.

The bottom knife is one I made from a seven inch Green River blade blank.  I'll be the first to tell you it is not authentic, although it is somewhat closer than the factory finished Green River knife.  I browned and buffed the blade to give it a patina and remove the etching (which is surprisingly tenacious), spot annealed the tang and drilled it for pins, slightly modified the profile of the tang, and installed beechwood slabs with iron pins.  I have not come up with a practical way to taper the tangs of these blades, with the space and equipment I have, so the tang is not tapered, it still has a choil, and the profile of the blade itself is a more modern style than you see on the really old knives.  However, beech was probably the most commonly used wood for handles on butcher knives back then.  Boxwood, ebony, cocobolo, Brazilwood, and logwood are documented, but beech was most common.  I have never seen or heard of curly maple being used on an original trade knife in original condition.  I have no doubt that some were rehafted after the original beech scales disintegrated, possibly with maple, but I have found no documentation to support the use of maple on knives as issued.

One other persistent rumor is that butcher knife blades were shipped west in barrels, to be hafted by the end-users.  I have seen no documentation of this, either.  There were some types of blades that were shipped without handles, such as some snow knives and crooked knives, but the best information I have found thus far indicates butcher and scalping knives were always shipped out to the frontier ready to use.  "Country made" handles were probably rehafted.

Notchy Bob


"Should have kept the old ways just as much as I could, and the tradition that guarded us.  Should have rode horses.  Kept dogs."

from The Antelope Wife

Offline Panzerschwein

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Thank you so much, Notchy! Amazing information and a lot of things to research.

I just emailed Crazy Crow to ask about the origin of that model and the type of steel etc. I may well just go with a Russell green river 8” butcher as I know the quality is good and they are dependable working blades made in the USA instead of Chinese/Pakistani junk. I think it’d look good with my Selb Hawken when it is done, despite the modern rivets and especially with a little patina added. It’d be close enough and a solid working blade.

I now need to research sheaths. I’m in Kuwait with no real post office so ordering physical books is tough. I wear my pouch and horn on my right side and imagine carrying the knife on my left hip for a “cross draw” sort of carry where I could pull the knife with my right hand would work well.

I recall seeing period paintings and later, photographs, of people carrying large knives in this crossdraw fashion. Did the sheaths have belt loops or were they just tucked into the waist belt?

Again, thank you so much for the info!! Take care,

-Panzer

Offline Carney Pace

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"American Primitive Knives" by Madison Grant.
"Bowie Knives" by Robert Abels

Offline alyce-james

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Panzerschwein Sir; This book I think you will find of interest "American Primitive Knives 1770 - 1870 by Gordon B. Minnis". Museum Restoration Service BLOOMFIELD 1983. Have a great week. AJ.
"Candy is Dandy but Liquor is Quicker". by Poet Ogden Nash 1931.

Offline Panzerschwein

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Thanks gang! :D

realtorone

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Try finding a copy of  The Skinning Knife  by MH Cole Published in 1996