Johann Wilhelm Graef vs Wolfgang Hachen

[spgordon]

Much later (1789) than the years he may have been in Reading but, if I don't put this here now, I won't even remember I saw it:

[mr. no gold]

A possibility on the 'Roman nose' architecture/French influence is that France had shipped over half a million 'fusil' guns into America for the Indians. The latter were more numerous than the Europeans and they liked the 'French' style. With the withdrawal of France from North America, the Indians turned to local builders and requested French looking guns. Can't prove it, but it makes some sense. Not my
original thought on this subject but must give credit to Jack Brooks who first spoke of this in my hearing.
Dick

 

[WESTbury]

A possibility on the 'Roman nose' architecture/French influence is that France had shipped over half a million 'fusil' guns into America for the Indians. The latter were more numerous than the Europeans and they liked the 'French' style. With the withdrawal of France from North America, the Indians turned to local builders and requested French looking guns. Can't prove it, but it makes some sense. Not my
original thought on this subject but must give credit to Jack Brooks who first spoke of this in my hearing.
Dick

Hi Dick,

Thanks for your input.

Finally!!!! A subject I know something about.

The French influence on American made arms was deep. Every Pattern of military muskets made for the U.S. beginning with the Charleville Pattern aka Model 1795 up through the Model 1842 Percussion Musket was based almost directly on a French designed arm.

Kent

[WESTbury]

Dave or anyone:  have you ever come across any documentation of John Philip Beck working - even if briefly - in Reading or nearby?  I bring this up because of RCA 30, which is unsigned, and the signed JP Beck "Chrisdianborgey" rifle which turned up a few years ago now (probably 15+ - yikes!) which is extremely similar to RCA 30 to the point of clearly being the same guy. 

Eric,

This is interesting.

Can you tell me which auction house and date was involved? I'd like to see some photos if they are still available.

Kent

[WESTbury]

I did a SEARCH on the ALR and found a 2009 thread on the ChrisdianBorgey rifle and was able to get a January 2009 photo of the rifle on the Contemorary website.



Are there any more photos extant?

[mr. no gold]

There are three or four 'Berks' rifles with the same incised carving motifs in the same locations as the Corgey gun. Aside from this one at least one of the others is signed, if memory serves. The unsigned pieces are much the same though. The patch boxes on those guns are finial and lid, of brass construction. Mike D'A had two or three of them some time ago. All nice rifles and strongly suggestive of Reading if not of Berks, generally.
Dick

[WESTbury]

There are three or four 'Berks' rifles with the same incised carving motifs in the same locations as the Corgey gun. Aside from this one at least one of the others is signed, if memory serves. The unsigned pieces are much the same though. The patch boxes on those guns are finial and lid, of brass construction. Mike D'A had two or three of them some time ago. All nice rifles and strongly suggestive of Reading if not of Berks, generally.
Dick

Here it is:
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__EARLIEST_KNOWN_SIGNED_J_P__BECK_FLINTLOCK_KENT-LOT496268.aspx

There seems to be no final sales price. Was it passed?

[Dobyns]

Its interesting to see that "earliest J P Beck" has the same shell carved behind the entry pipe and forearm bulge as is common on the early Reading rifles.   The butt is tall and flat ala Schreit 1761, and Roman nose more apparent than seen on Womelsdorf and later Lebanon Township guns.

Thanks for that link!

[WESTbury]

I would like to thank everybody who took the time and made the effort to respond to this thread.

Kent

[backsplash75]

A possibility on the 'Roman nose' architecture/French influence is that France had shipped over half a million 'fusil' guns into America for the Indians. The latter were more numerous than the Europeans and they liked the 'French' style. With the withdrawal of France from North America, the Indians turned to local builders and requested French looking guns. Can't prove it, but it makes some sense. Not my
original thought on this subject but must give credit to Jack Brooks who first spoke of this in my hearing.
Dick

Apologies for thread drift! 

Dick,
To take this push a step further, French allied Indian markets preferred French style goods to the point that Sir William Johnson had copies of French style point blankets made in England in the 1750s, Sheffield makers did french style pocket knives and then we have what I like to call "Franglish/Franglo" trade guns by Wilson, very much an English made trading gun in the French style. What I believe to be a trigger guard from one of those was dug at Fort Ligonier in PA. Complete example in Ryan Gale's for Trade and treaty p135 on. Similar (but with a NW gun sideplate ) to the O'Connor gun in Hamilton.  There is of course an obvious correlation in some New England stocked guns with French styles as well (many NE fowlers having recycled french parts in the mix too).

[mr. no gold]

Great information, BP. Thank you! It's hard to over ride history and the Brits found out.
Dick