Another Question Regarding Web Thickness

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I built a cherry fowler that was a very skinny lady. the web and the entire forestock were very thin. I don't remember how it happened but the forearm split on both sides.. the ends of the  6-8 inch split were still closed. I did as Fred described with stain and Elmers and surgical tubing. worked great. cracks are invisible. I then bedded the inside of the forestock with Acraglasss bedding to add some strength. It has seen many years in the woods and fields and at the range and all is fine.  I just like skinny guns!! I guess I was so amazed at how skinny the original long rifles and fowlers in the Williamsburg Museum were that it had a lasting impact.

[Mike Brooks]

Most original end up with splits in the wood between ramrod channel and barrel channel in the fore-end. I imagine the thinner the web is, the more likely to split after a hundred years or more.

Especially if the lugs aren't relieved for the pins and the stock is not relieved for the lugs. If the wood can't move with out restrictions it will split  the RR channel.

[mgbruch]

I begin with 3/16" at the muzzle, and try for that at the breach. Once you take the nose down it will be 1/8" at the muzzle.  the web on a swamped barrel will vary; and it's very important to get the web right from the muzzle to where the ramrod hole begins.  that web between the ramrod groove and barrel channel will deterermine the accuracy of your ramrod hole, and web, at the breach. 

[bluenoser]

How true!
There are a number of ways to skin that cat.  Some involve math and the swamp of the barrel.  I think the simplest and most foolproof is to measure down on the side of the stock to the desired web thickness at the breech and muzzle after the barrel has been inlet and draw a straight line between the marks.  Cut the RR groove to the line.  Hmmmm.... should be a good way to set it up on the mill.  It would be interesting to hear how others do it.

[flehto]

Because the Bucks County LRs became very slender using 1/16" web at the breech and 5/32" at the muzzle and doing a few other things, also tried these same webs w/ a Lancaster and it also became quite slender. The Dale Johnson lock filled the space nicely and because the lock "tail" is lower than the large Siler, it is quite easy to properly position.....Fred

[yip]

 so after reading all this, what's the ideal measurements at the muzzle and breech? i'm thinking 5/32" at the muzzle and 1/8" at the breech  being on the safe side.

[rich pierce]

so after reading all this, what's the ideal measurements at the muzzle and breech? i'm thinking 5/32" at the muzzle and 1/8" at the breech  being on the safe side.

There is no ideal unless your goal is “as slim as possible regardless of what an original I’m basing my build on had for a web.”  Look at a variety of nosecaps on originals. Now imagine a wafer of remaining wood between the barrel and the ramrod, and putting a nosecap on about 0.100” of wood. That’s what you are up against if you go for 5/32 at the muzzle. It is doable, and appropriate if you want the slimmest look possible while remaining structurally strong. Any less and it could become a nightmare.

[bluenoser]

Rich just did an excellent job of putting things into perspective, so I am going to re-phrase the question to something a little more manageable.  It also happens to be pertinent to my build.
What would be the typical or average web thicknesses at the breech and muzzle of Lancaster or Shenandoah Valley VA rifle dating to the third quarter of the 18th century -  let's say 1760 - 1780?

[rich pierce]

I looked at my copy of The Lancaster Longrifle and snapped pictures of those 1770s guns where the distance between ramrod and bottom of the barrel could be guessed, at least very roughly. Keep in mind that s good many guns have had fore-end restorations.






Then I took pictures from Bob Lienemann’s book Moravian Gunmaking II which shows some nosecaps. Happy to take down any or all pictures if that is requested.

Make your best guess, but I’m going with 5/32 minimum in most cases, but think it will vary.
Another practical consideration is hitting the underlugs, not the barrel. A thin web can make precision more important.

[flehto]

The 1/16" {.062} web at   the breech and 5/32" {.156} at the muzzle  were well thought out and work well. 5/32" w/ a Mcap made from .040 sheet stock still leaves sufficient wood {.116"}. Judging from the photos, these originals were possibly the same?......Fred

[yip]

 Thanks Rich for the pictures sure opens your eyes, no questions about it they're really thin!

[bluenoser]

Thank you Rich for that post.  I am thinking it took considerable time and effort and I want you to know it was both appreciated and useful.  I took the bait and went through RCA I and II and Longrifle Articles I and II in search of scalable photos of the muzzle.  Excluding European guns, there was a grand total of six.  Eliminating the one that appears to have a web almost 1/4" thick and assuming a muzzle measuring 7/8" across the flats, the average web thickness appears to be a little over 5/32".  Also eliminating the rifle with a substantially thinner web, the average web thickness increases to a little under 3/16".  I think the latter is the best average, and both correlate very well with Rich's estimate.  I went with a 1/8" web when I drew my plans and I think I might bump that up to a strong 5/32" when I build.  My as-laid-out web at the breech is a shy 5/32" and, If I can work up the nerve, I think I might reduce it to a little under 1/8" to reduce the depth of wood under the lock.  My forward lock bolt already hits the lock above the centreline, so I will need to take that into consideration.  As laid out, the lock nicely parallels the bottom of the lower forestock, so I am inclined not to raise the front of the lock.  I am not easily offended, so please set me straight if I am headed off on a tangent.

I was surprised to see something else in the photos Rich posted.  The forearms in photos 1, 2 and 4 appear to come well above the mid line of the barrel.  I wonder if that has any regional significance.