Author Topic: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015  (Read 2336 times)

Offline BradBrownBess

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Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« on: August 30, 2021, 07:48:56 AM »
This is Antique Roadshow so it of course can be "all over the map" on appraisals but I do respect William Guthman  immensely and it is a beauty of a gun.

I know these guns are not bought with "investor return" in mind - just wanted general opinions on future markets for LongRifles, Americana, Rev War militaria, Civil War, etc.

I know my nieces and boyfriends think my obsessive collection "interesting and neat" - but eyes glaze over after much detail. I hope younger people will carry on the heritage. Even with some price drops since the 2008 crisis - good, quality items, are generally way out of reach of anything but very deep healed collectors.

Opinions, Ideas, will museums prosper, does investment return enter into your buy process. etc? Just throwing open ideas to the crowd as I know many a sharp mind with ages of experience are here. God Bless!!!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=dickert+rifle&&view=detail&mid=A72A711E787A82E334BCA72A711E787A82E334BC&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Ddickert%2520rifle%26qs%3Dn%26form%3DQBVR%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Ddickert%2520rifle%26sc%3D3-13%26sk%3D%26cvid%3DBB08C52E5C5648A7ADA019D552102ECA

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2021, 05:00:49 PM »
I’m a beginner collector at 68 years of age. Till now I’ve had neither the time or money to pursue collecting.  I’ve started a collection of large, mostly plain  powder horns, and am now starting to acquire a gun or two. I’ve bought a few plain later percussion fullstock working rifles and a late 1700’s Lancaster smooth rifle. These are for study and nostalgia, not investment. I’d rather buy land when it comes to spending $50,000 and up. But there have been plenty of collectors of modest means who have worked their way up very successfully.

I am seeing and guessing that guns sold as connected with the Revolutionary War have wide appeal and higher value, as well as guns connected to famous historical figures. I think those are solid investments. But over decades, a diversified stock market portfolio of the same starting value will outperform most collections. So, one needs to perhaps see a longrifle collection as stewardship of something precious.
Andover, Vermont

Offline BradBrownBess

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2021, 06:34:38 PM »
Nicely said Rich. I am hoping younger Tech oriented generations keep the passion going. CW shows etc are 95% grey heads these days - but I see some younger people coming a little more - especially for Images and lower end guns. I'm not a land guy but a stock guy on 50K and up places to park money.

I will say that looking at the that Antiques Roadshow appraisal - it was about right - 60 - 70K in 2000 but by 2015 half that.
Will it half again in 15 years? Sell for 15K in 2030?

I am looking at a 1994 Gun report and a Long Land Pattern Bess in "Very Good" but cleaned shape is listed by Condon for 11,500. That's about what it would bring today (maybe a little more) - not adjusted for inflation. Most of the listed CW guns are listed for more in 1994 than they would be now as in a nice, # matching Colt for $3250 that today could easily be had at any CW show for $2K.

If prices do decline it could certainly bring younger people back in to bring the market and interest back up.

In GA all Confederate "everything" has and is being removed quickly. Of course that now goes for everything American History - that's what worries me. We have a cannon used in the 1836 Creek War that's being removed - its been labeled "the Genocide Cannon". Charlottesville removed a priceless Lewis and Clarke Bronze Statue.

I would hate to see the day when a rare Early American Longarm can barely be given away. Usually the best of the best holds it value - but these are not usual days.
Just my 2 cents.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2021, 03:53:06 AM »
Rest assured that good material will never be worthless...despite the machinations of politicians and those seeking to curry favor in the world of pop culture (and I hesitate to use the word "culture" in this instance).

But, all of these things have no functional value. Their value is almost entirely determined by how much a private individual is willing to pay for the satisfaction of owning it. With that in mind, prices have always fluctuated. CW arms go up and down as to all the others. Often the motivating factor is something as puerile as a popular movie. Think of Jeremiah Johnson and the Hawken rifle or the Ken Brooks documentary on the CW. Both of these had a measurable effect on the market. Collecting, like everything else, has its fads and fashions.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 12:32:38 AM by JV Puleo »

Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2021, 07:46:35 PM »
This is a bit off the topic, but the piece in the PBS show looks like the one being auctioned at RI.. Wonder how many times Dickert copied that profile?
The old Quaker, "We are non-resistance friend, but ye are standing where I intend to shoot!"

Offline utseabee

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2021, 02:27:37 AM »
     I am relatively new to collecting originals and buy what I like and can afford. I would like to see these rifles hold their value on one hand, but on the other hand, the fluctuating prices is what allowed me to get into this in the first place. I am not buying them with the intent to make money, I buy them because I enjoy them and want to see them preserved. Someone else can deal with the value of my collection after I am gone. ;)
The difficult we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2021, 02:44:11 AM »
This is a bit off the topic, but the piece in the PBS show looks like the one being auctioned at RI.. Wonder how many times Dickert copied that profile?

Hey Dan,

No, it is not the same rifle. Check out the set trigger on both and you will see a great difference. I believe Moller may have had that rifle at least as early as 1993 when his Vol I of American Military Shoulder Arms was published. Also the RIA rifle has 3 rammer pipes and an entry pipe, the ARS has 2 rammer pipes and an entry pipe.

It does look very similar though.

Kent
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 02:59:54 AM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline AZshot

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2021, 08:43:01 PM »
I'm into collecting in several areas, all early to middle 20th century Americana.  In the supply and demand equation, you should weigh demand more heavily.  The 1970s days of the buckskinner craze for young men is over.  Back then, there was a back to the roots movement that helped keep demand high.  The re-enacting Revolutionary and Civil War battles is also getting less popular.  History is barely taught in schools, very few historic movies come out, seldom very popular with the young 20 year olds.  All that hearkens to lower demand for original long rifles. 

There will always be SOME that are into history, no matter how esoteric.  The best items will stay somewhat valuable.  Interestingly, I'm right now selling a rare, early brass lens, the type used by Watkins and Brady and other wetplaters.  It's worth about $8-10 grand.  The only high rollers contacting me about it are in China and Korea.  I have 2 50 year old classic Honda motorcycles, barely worth what a set of wheels goes for on a modern Harley.

Colonial everything is down, primitive art, fine art, furniture, household items, pottery, coins, anything you can think of from our early history.  If you bought high 15-20 years ago, you are going to be left holding the bag.  Strangely, industrial things from the 20th century like giant oil and automotive signs are up.  Muscle cars...down. 

Like the guy above said, the lower prices allow me to get a few rifles, because I love history.  I'm glad I'm not competing with those that were buying them for $50,000 a few years ago.  MANY of the guns I love are now sleepers, going for very cheap prices.  Those I collect, I've always bought what everyone else ignores, and ignore what everyone else buys.  If you do that....you can acquire a nice collection.  But everyone knows guns are/were valuable.  You don't often walk into an antique shop or estate sale and "scoop" one up cheap, like you can other antiques.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 08:49:38 PM by AZshot »

Offline JTR

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2021, 10:54:29 PM »
All said and done, I wouldn't expect that Dickert to go for anywhere near cheap.
And wouldn't be surprised if you didn't need your Extra Big checkbook to take it home.
John Robbins

Offline smart dog

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2021, 02:18:53 PM »
Hi,
There appears to be another factor influencing the entire antiques market and that is more younger folks cannot afford homes.  It is hard to keep a collection of furniture or long guns if you are renting and move a lot. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline BradBrownBess

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2021, 08:40:31 PM »
I collect for the interest but when I sell I always do so at auction - usually the big 5. I find Auctions to be great places to sell and generally bad places to buy - they are heavily advertised and people get carried away with emotions. I will say my WW2 and WW1 firearms that I have sold at auction did extremely well as did Confederate images (I had a few images that did 500% increase in less than 10 years that I sold in 2020). But in general I would never consider a collectible an investment - its a hobby. Even coins - they are money but numismatic collectibles. I collect a lot things - but 99% history and militaria. The best of the best tends to hold it value ok but the rest rarely meets inflation at best. I would think the RIA Dickert brings upper 20's to very low 30's - because of the 25% buyers premium. To me it would be a 25K total rifle because of all the restoration.
Interestingly, since the pandemic, collectibles of all kinds of have done very well - baseball cards I would say are in a a massive bubble (I don't collect them). You can actually buy pieces of cards - like stocks - you don't own the card just a tiny slice (That's going to end very badly I think) - kind of like NFTs. Actually I'm in the crowd of right now every asset class is in a bubble - but thats a whole nother topic.

I just hope historical items in general keep bringing in younger people to keep all these hobbies and interest alive. Civil War Reenactments are all but dead sadly - too much mess and hassle with the PC crowd picketers helped kill those. In Georgia I know of no Mt Man or primitive reenactments at all.

I'll disagree slightly on colonial - as 2 Brown Bess muskets I bought this year I've paid ridiculous prices - but they are truly rare (true 1st pattern 1730 and a 1742 Regimentally marked 100% never touched). 99% of the Rev War guns (Muskets) I see are parts guns and items made to "look old" or spuriously marked for value - basically "bad guns".

BUT - I know 2 dealers personally that have had the best years ever in 2020 and 2021 - their only complaint being not enough inventory. They say younger people (30 somethiings are coming into the market more each year)

Time will tell. Sad article I read by Wes Cowan last year where old world Master works paintings that once brought 20 - 40 million or more sold for less than 10 million. The Modern pieces brought record prices - changing tastes of course. But Wes did say "best buying opportunity that will probably never come around again, a Rembrandt original painting does not come up often". I just would hate to be the guy that paid 120M for a painting to auction it 20 years later for 8M - OUCH.

Offline AZshot

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2021, 01:54:17 AM »
The major difference is people in 1950 or 1970 even were taught America was great.  Innovative, adventurous, inventive, tough, and all that.  Today, kids are taught to be ashamed of our history, as if non of those things matter, because we fought Indians and had slaves (5% did).  So why would a 17 year old want to collect something he's taught to be ashamed off?  I try to do my part to change that...but going against the stream it feels.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2021, 02:14:47 AM »
The major difference is people in 1950 or 1970 even were taught America was great.  Innovative, adventurous, inventive, tough, and all that.  Today, kids are taught to be ashamed of our history, as if non of those things matter, because we fought Indians and had slaves (5% did).  So why would a 17 year old want to collect something he's taught to be ashamed off?  I try to do my part to change that...but going against the stream it feels.

That pretty much sums it, to a "T".
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2021, 02:58:07 AM »
I don’t think that current views on American history have much to do with the tanking of model railroading. That is what is happening. In the 1980s a close friend of mine had great success making model trains of a certain gauge. They were extremely accurate scaled down reproductions. Within his hobby he was as famous as an Allen Martin or Mike Brooks in ours. Things of days gone by, never experienced or romanticized in their youth - how could or why could they capture the imagination of young people? This doesn’t address collecting per se, but rather interest in things gone by.
Andover, Vermont

Offline utseabee

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2021, 03:23:07 AM »
I don’t think that current views on American history have much to do with the tanking of model railroading. That is what is happening. In the 1980s a close friend of mine had great success making model trains of a certain gauge. They were extremely accurate scaled down reproductions. Within his hobby he was as famous as an Allen Martin or Mike Brooks in ours. Things of days gone by, never experienced or romanticized in their youth - how could or why could they capture the imagination of young people? This doesn’t address collecting per se, but rather interest in things gone by.

   I would have to agree with Rich on this. I think it has to do more with how and where someone is brought up. Using Pa is an example, Most people in Philadelphia would have completely different interests and hobbies than someone north and west of the city. You can have someone who has never held a firearm compared to someone who was brought up hunting from an early age. The person who was brought up hunting most likely will have more of an interest in collecting any kind of firearm being modern or antique than the one who wasn't exposed to them. I also believe that younger people today have many more things available to them to do and different distractions than some of us had. Their interests change regularly and they really may not be interested in any one thing long enough to collect it, no matter what it may be. There are of course always exceptions.
The difficult we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer.

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2021, 01:47:35 PM »
Getting back to the Dickert rifle in the video, has anyone on this forum seen photos of this rifle in any books, or know if it was auctioned in 2015? It was difficult to see much detail in the video with Bill flipping the rifle around. I'd like to see some photos of it for my own edification.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Telgan

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Re: Just Opinions on This Guthman Apraised Dickert - 2000 vs 2015
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2021, 01:21:14 AM »
Getting back to the Dickert rifle in the video, has anyone on this forum seen photos of this rifle in any books, or know if it was auctioned in 2015? It was difficult to see much detail in the video with Bill flipping the rifle around. I'd like to see some photos of it for my own edification.
Likewise .   .     .