Author Topic: Lead shot substitutes? (Read 11013 times)

Waksupi · « **on:** August 19, 2009, 02:43:48 AM »

I have been trying to figure out what kind of the modern shot can be used in my fowlers for waterfowl hunting. I don't want to harm the bore.
Does anyone have any experience with this?

jmforge · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2009, 02:48:20 AM »

Can you buy bismuth shot anymore?

roundball · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2009, 04:01:50 AM »

Quote from: Waksupi on August 19, 2009, 02:43:48 AM

I have been trying to figure out what kind of the modern shot can be used in my fowlers for waterfowl hunting. I don't want to harm the bore.
Does anyone have any experience with this?

EcoTungsten/(Niceshot)...very expensive but what waterfowl stuff isn't these days...google up EcoTungsten.

No shot cup needed even in old original guns, identical lead substitute, so the good news is that all load development can be done using the equivalent less costly lead pellets, then just test an insurance shot or two with Niceshot to verify.

#6's pattern outstanding in my .62cal smoothbore, better than magnum hard lead #6s.
I just received some #4s in hopes I may have a chance at a goose this year.

northmn · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2009, 05:04:54 PM »

Another option I have used depending upon the amount of shooting you do is to buy a box of Bismuth, which is available again. I dismantle the shells and use the shot. I did get 7 pounds of Bismuth before their plant burned down and still use it. There was some discussion on eco-shot needing a shot cup a while back. You can use steel up close by buying the steel wads and loading them over a card. One option I am exploring is to cut off the base and slit the wad at an angle. Some have claimed that they can slug unless a very stiff charge is used. You can get 20 ga steel wads through Ballistic Products. A thin lubed wad may help if you are concerned about plastic melting the bore.

DP

roundball · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2009, 08:16:14 PM »

From the EcoTungsten/Niceshot website, and my experience bears it out:

“... Nice Shot™ does not have such problem. It is designed to be as heavy as lead shot but a bit harder. Yet it is still pliable enough to pass through the choke constriction and the barrel smoothly without scratching… “

“… You don't need special wads or special load information. It works just like lead and performs much better... “

http://www.ecotungsten.com/shots.html

Waksupi · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2009, 10:54:24 PM »

Thanks for the replies. NiceShot looks like a good substitute. Although I did get a reverse pucker when I saw the price /kilo!
All in all, that would be a lot of game shots. There are some large Federal hunting areas here, where I may also use it for pheasant, chukar, and dove. I'm glad I can use lead on grouse, as that is my main target right around home.

frogwalking · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2009, 07:57:34 PM »

I stopped at Gander Mountain off I-95 just North of Richmond. Picked up a 10# bag of copper plated #6s. They were awfully expensive but I got them anyway. The check out guy looked all over the woven plastic bag for a bar code. There was none. He tried aiming the code reader at the bag in general just to see if maybe it would miraculously read out. nothing.

He turned it over another time or two. Still no bar code. He pushed it on through, into my bag and read the code on the rest of my purchases. As it turned out, the bag of #6s was free.

I pondered the ethics of walking out of there with a "free" $30 bag of shot. I decided that the teller gave it to me as his own personal gift. Then again, check out the discussion of apathy in "over the back fence". Personally, I think it was not apathy but stupidity. Maybe ignorance............ Nice shot though.

northmn · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2009, 04:40:07 PM »

The price of most lead shot makes me pucker also. Eco Thungsten is the most expensive. Another option is the ITX out of ballistic Products whcih is being made in #6. For Doves and Chukar I would play with #6 steel as it is less expensive and would work fine.

DP

Waksupi · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2009, 08:22:15 PM »

I have shied away from steel shot. I would assume it would need a shot cup? I prefer to just use card wads.

northmn · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2009, 04:56:57 AM »

It would need a shot protector. I shoot steel a lot because I do not feel the substitutes give enough better performance to warrant the cost. But this is in my modern guns. I use Bismuth in my 2 hammer BPC shotgun.

DP

WaterFowl · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2009, 06:10:07 AM »

all non-toxic shot other than Nice-shot will require a protective shot cup
#6 Heavi-shot patterns well and makes a good turkey pattern with a tight choke
I just received shipping -e-mail from BPI I have 7 lbs of # 2 Heavi-shot on the way for geese.
early goose season opens here the 1 st of Sept. I will be shooting 1.5 oz. loads with 10 ga. DBL choked.
For ducks in October I will be shooting 5 and 6 nice-shot and use the rest of the #6 heavi-shot up . I have no reports on the new ITX shot- what I have heard was it was on the brittle side. It reminds me of Blackcloud shot- I tried some last year in my modern shotguns and was not impressed.Hope to get a good report from some one on this new shot. The big debate for me was using 4 or 2 Heavi-shot went with the large one, will choke to pattern.

roundball · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2009, 04:08:45 PM »

I found Niceshot to be an excellent product...most notably the fact that no shot cup is required so I don't have to use modern shot cups...and it patterns fantastic...have some #4s and #6s on hand now.
But good gracious they have GOT to find a way to lower the cost some...its just really almost over the top...need some competition to get into the market

northmn · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2009, 06:50:58 PM »

I ahve started playing with the Ballistic products LBC wad and find it very promising. Loading is not the PITA you would think as I load a card then the wad, puch on the wad to seat it fluch and a little less, fill the wad with steel and put an overshot wad over it and seat it. The LBC hads grooves which I fill with Crisco, other pet lubes would work. I cut off the base, evened it out so that I have a tube with both ends open. I then slit the wad full length. 1 /4 oz capacity wad and 80 grains of 2f and it patterened very well with steel 2's. Steel does like a bit of moter mica mixed in to make it pattern better but that can be done in the shot pouch. I do not buffer with it, just coat the shot. At close ranges, such as 30 yards or so, steel hits plenty hard. This does seem to eliminate the slugging complaint on steel wads if one does not use a heavy powder charge. Precision Reloading handles an interesting 20 gauge wad that could work in this manner. Too bad SAM went out as they had grooves that could be filled.

DP

steg49 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:24:18 AM »

Here is what I've done to hunt duck with steel shot (hope you don't laugh to hard). I make my own shot cups out of paper milk carton, cut two strips a little over 1/2 inch wide, by about 3 inch long (depends on the amount of shot your using) then pre shape them by making a + and push then part way into an old 12 gauge shell, then bundle in groups of about twenty (enough for ten shot) and put them in the hunting pouch. Power and over the powder wads as usual then short start the milk carton cup, fill with shot, push it down and then over the shot card. Works well, I've got a nice photo of myself and another hunter with 14 mallards, seven shots appice, my BP Bretta over and under took 7, his modern shotgun took seven. steg49

roundball · « **Reply #14 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:36:14 AM »

I'm surprised that milk carton material would have kept the steel shot from pressing through to the bore...

steg49 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 25, 2009, 02:44:54 AM »

The shotgun I have is a cylinder bore so not much compressiion at the end of the barrel. I have recovered a number of them, they tend to be floating all over the pond when I'm done and they are dented but the shot doesn't press through the cardbord. Milk carton is also waxed which seem to help with the loading. I've tried plastic wads and they left a film in the barrel that was hard to clean and plugs stuff up. I would suggest that you try milk carton wads with lead shot in your gun first to make sure it hold up the way it does for me, and you can patter it at the same time. steg49

LynnC · « **Reply #16 on:** August 25, 2009, 06:56:51 AM »

Steg - Glad to hear of your success with the milk carton sleeves

I got as far as cutting out cross shapes and making a dowel starter for my 12 ga. Then never went to test it

Now I gotta try it!

Give us some load spec to try.......Lynn

northmn · « **Reply #17 on:** August 25, 2009, 07:49:32 PM »

Modern shotguns may have more "setback force than the milk carton. Also its the bigger steel sizes like #1 or BB and larger that do not flow through the chokes. With no choke as long as the sleeve holds up it would work. To avoid the plastic coating I used the grooved wads and lubed them with patch lube and put a card under them.

DP

frogwalking · « **Reply #18 on:** August 25, 2009, 08:52:03 PM »

Something some said earlier just dawned on me.................Will the copper plated lead shot I bought hurt the bore of my soon-to-be-new 20 gauge?

BrownBear · « **Reply #19 on:** August 25, 2009, 09:25:08 PM »

After all these years I just had a revelation.

Checking my log book, my busiest muzzleloader waterfowl season involved a little under 200 shots. And that was a LOT of hunting and shooting. More typical was 100 shots in a season.

A kilo of NiceShot translates into just over thirty 1 1/8-ounce loads, so my best season required around 6 kilos of shot and the average was closer to 3 kilos. At $60/kilo that puts my shot cost in an average season at around $200 and a great season at $400.

Heck, I spend more than $200 a season on gasoline. I spend more than $200 a season on shells for my modern shotguns. And $400 for a GREAT season of duck hunting? Shoot. I know guys that spend that much for a single day of guided waterfowl hunting.

Yeah, it's easy to whine about the high cost of shot these days, but when you look at the other money you're already spending, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Time for me to get off the pot and stop whining. I've been missing out on great hunting while fussing over costs that are next to meaningless compared to the other costs of waterfowl hunting. Now all I have to do is decide between a 12 and a 10.

roundball · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2009, 10:24:48 PM »

Quote from: frogwalking on August 25, 2009, 08:52:03 PM

Something some said earlier just dawned on me.................Will the copper plated lead shot I bought hurt the bore of my soon-to-be-new 20 gauge?

No, I've shot it for years...modern shotguns and muzzleloaders...softer than the steel walls of the bore, and the lead inside still gives if wedged through any choke.

Way back in the early 1900s when Winchester introduced "Lubaloy", it truly was copper PLATED shot...and worked fantastic for decades, but its no longer made and today's Lawerance brand is nothing more than a copper "wash" that rubs off fairly easily...it would not pattern even as tight as my normal magnun #6s for turkey.

Nickel plated shot however, gives better patterning (and penetration) performance than present day copper plated...but if you can find any of the old Winchester Lubaloy, jump on it because its the real deal !

roundball · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2009, 10:29:50 PM »

Quote from: BrownBear on August 25, 2009, 09:25:08 PM

After all these years I just had a revelation.

Checking my log book, my busiest muzzleloader waterfowl season involved a little under 200 shots. And that was a LOT of hunting and shooting. More typical was 100 shots in a season.

A kilo of NiceShot translates into just over thirty 1 1/8-ounce loads, so my best season required around 6 kilos of shot and the average was closer to 3 kilos. At $60/kilo that puts my shot cost in an average season at around $200 and a great season at $400.

Heck, I spend more than $200 a season on gasoline. I spend more than $200 a season on shells for my modern shotguns. And $400 for a GREAT season of duck hunting? Shoot. I know guys that spend that much for a single day of guided waterfowl hunting.

Yeah, it's easy to whine about the high cost of shot these days, but when you look at the other money you're already spending, you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Time for me to get off the pot and stop whining. I've been missing out on great hunting while fussing over costs that are next to meaningless compared to the other costs of waterfowl hunting. Now all I have to do is decide between a 12 and a 10.

AND..........the good news is that since its a direct substitute for lead, you can do all your load development / pattern testing with lead...THEN just take a couple of verification shots with Niceshot to to be sure and go duck hunting.

After finiding my best .62cal turkey load using Lawrance brand magnun hard #6's.
I then substituted #6 Niceshot for a few shots and it patterned even better, filling more pellets into the same turkey head pattern.

WaterFowl · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2009, 11:59:56 PM »

The price of waterfowling----I gave up trying to rationalize the cost per pound of ducks and geese. We hunt waterfowl becuse we love it. I started in the late 60's and slowly bought equipment,decoys,calls,duck skifs etc. It gets in your blood. It's just great to spend a day where ducks live. It has changed over the years, steel, duck numbers, goose numbers, but it's still better than a day at work. Just do-it!

northmn · « **Reply #23 on:** August 26, 2009, 01:16:48 PM »

Quote from: Fowl on August 25, 2009, 11:59:56 PM

^{The price of waterfowling----I gave up trying to rationalize the cost per pound of ducks and geese. We hunt waterfowl because we love it. I started in the late 60's and slowly bought equipment,decoys,calls,duck skiffs etc. It gets in your blood. It's just great to spend a day where ducks live. It has changed over the years, steel, duck numbers, goose numbers, but it's still better than a day at work. Just do-it!}

AMEN. If a person wants there is nothing wrong with buying any of the lead substitutes. Actually Hevi-Shot is heavier than lead. I mention steel use because I have a lot of steel which I reload (The new Steel powder by Alliant makes it possible). The Nice shot may find a home in my double hammer 16 ga. But I do mention steel use because it really is a reasonable alternative. The plastic wad I use is also the shot measure as I push it and the card down close to the end of the muzzle and fill the shot cup, card it then seat the whole shebang. Cutting the wads and lubing them is done before going into the field.
One thing about lead substitutes is that shooting with a single shot fowler will also reduce the number of shots in a season. Just as a SWAQ if you shoot 200 shots out of a repeater, you likely will only shoot 80 or so out of a fowler. Even a BP double will cut back on shots fired.
DP

WaterFowl · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2009, 02:50:09 AM »

This past Sunday9-20-09 I took 2 geese with #2 Heavi-shot--load 1 1/2 oz-95 fff Graf's BP-1 plastic stiff shotcup-1 -1/8 inch over powder card edges lubed and 1 thin over shot card. This was shot out of a Pedersoli 10 ga. SxS open choke--at 35 yards the #2's penetrated 3/4 of the way through the body.the first one was knocked flat- second one I had to chase a short distance and dispatch- I will be keeping my shots to 35 yards--on a side note this was my first shooting opportunity since last fall- the big birds are moving faster than they look. I had to relearn the lead factor!I am very happy with this #2 heavi-shot load......Dan

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Author Topic: Lead shot substitutes? (Read 11013 times)

jmforge

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northmn

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BrownBear

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