tang screw vs. tang bolt

[Ken G]

Guys,
Just curious and would like to hear some opinions on this.   
I see a majority of TN guns where the tang is held in place by screws only.  There are normally at least 2 screws and sometimes 3.  I'd say the abundance of surviving originals would prove screws to be a safe manner for attaching a barrel but I have always gone with the way of thinking that a tang bolt going into the trigger plate is safer. 

Is there a genuine safety issue with using screws rather than a tang bolt?  Anyone know of failures, close calls or having to make repairs to screws that have stripped out?

Thanks,
Ken

[Dphariss]

Guys,
Just curious and would like to hear some opinions on this.   
I see a majority of TN guns where the tang is held in place by screws only.  There are normally at least 2 screws and sometimes 3.  I'd say the abundance of surviving originals would prove screws to be a safe manner for attaching a barrel but I have always gone with the way of thinking that a tang bolt going into the trigger plate is safer. 

Is there a genuine safety issue with using screws rather than a tang bolt?  Anyone know of failures, close calls or having to make repairs to screws that have stripped out?

Thanks,
Ken

The metal screw going to a plate at the bottom of the stock is stronger and re-enforces the wrist better.
Wood screws are the cheapest possible way to do it. They are bad practice in this application.
Poor workmanship is just that, poor workmanship and just because someone did it that way in the past is not reason to recreate it.
The very long tangs with the tang running up on the comb would be hard to put a screw through to the bottom of the stock. I would use a metal insert under the tang in this case.

Dan

[Don Getz]

The majority of kentucky rifles I have seen have a tang bolt that goes thru to the trigger plate.  Even the early trade guns
had tang bolts, some of them went up thru the guard into the tang.   However, that being said, I would think that many
of the later tennessee mountain rifles may have had just wood screws to hold the barrel in at the tang.   We have mentioned John Schippers as a great engraver, and has worked at the Conner Prairie Museum for probably most of his
life.   They have been involved in gun building for many, many years, and I think John advocates using a wood screw in
the tang, he feels it keeps the wrist stronger.......I'm not sure I agree with that.............Don

[Bill of the 45th]

I agree with Dan, in that it's a matter of strengthening the wrist area, as opposed to a safety issue.  The longer tangs may be an attempt to increase this strength, and as we've learned it's become a regional trait.  I think their view of safety was to go with heavier barrels with smaller calibers.  My two cents , for what it's worth.

Bill

[Birddog6]

I think it may strengthen them a tad, taking the screw thru to the lockplate, but IMHO not enough to really make any difference.  The long tangs are mild steel, soft & bend easily & if you fall on the rifle, good chance it will break at the wrist with fixed either way..  Personally, I don't think that lil strip of metal will save it. Heck you build one & run that tang up over the comb & have it in & out 40-11 times, you will see how easy they bend !!     I think the screw thru to the triggerplate is a false security, but it looks good, and it does secure the lockplate well & the long tang is down & there to stay........ 

I hope I never have to find out if it saves the wrist.   

[Roger Fisher]

My old shooter 15/16 straight .45 (now closer to a .46!) that I stuck together in 89 in the So Mt style iron mtd has 2 such wood screws and a tang abt 6 in long.  I have fired many shots thru the old gal and she has survived some abuse and 80 3f charges.  Doesn't prove much; but I'm happy with the results so far.   My later efforts do include the tang bolt. 

[roundball]

Just as a similar piece of information...some of you may know that T/C Hawken muzzleloaders had a chronic problem of the stock developing a split on the left side, usually running with the grain, just above the lock bolt hole ending at the edge of the barrel channel near the tang face.

T/C's fix was to replace the front tang wood screw with a 1/4" through bolt to the trigger guard to lock up that whole weak region where so much internal wood had been removed for the lock, lock bolt,  and trigger assemblies.

T/C had previously replaced two complete stock assemblies for me at no charge due to the splitting problem, and their fix appears to have fixed that chronic problem.  On a 3rd stock that was barely beginning to develop the chronic hairline split, after sending it to T/C they called to confirm they no longer had any stocks with its particular LOP and degree of figure, so I asked them to send it back.

I added the wrist strengthening parts myself, and also drilled a 3/16 hole straight down through the hairline crack, measured and removed the 3/16" drill bit, cut it off an eyelash shorter, coated it with epoxy and tapped it back down into the stock just below flush...have continued to use that stock ever since without the crack deleloping any further.  And at that point I got the parts and systematically began modifying all the remaining T/C Hawkens I had at the time, as they were all earlier stocks with very pretty above average wood and longer LOPs.

[Ken G]

Interesting Picture:
Below are two Bull rifles.  The top one was a fancy version with inlays, fancy file work, painted on strips and a brass patchbox.  Obviously a all decked out version.  It has a tang bolt to the trigger plate.  The other is a very plain Jane rifle and as you can see does not have a tang bolt.  Both had tangs that extended just over the nose of the comb. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Ken, on the top fancy rifle, is that the tang bolt that is thru the front guard extension?

The plainer rifle has a woodscrew thru the guard extension.

[Ken G]

Here's a better picture of the top one.


And the Bottom one

[Stophel]

The "brass barreled gun" has a wood screw in the tang.

I have a ca. 1830 German rifle with a wood screw.  The triggers are held in place with the triggerguard (not so well after 170 years).  I don't think it's the best way to go, but there's really no problem with it.

I don't think there's a strength issue. I do NOT think that adding bolts, long tangs, etc. strengthen a wrist AT ALL.  What it might do is hold the pieces together if it does break.

 

[Carper]

Ken: Most of the better old rifles that I have seen from here(SWVA) sure had a scew in the tang. Some even nailed the over the comb ends. The Carper's,Honakers,Polks, and Millers used a trigger assembly that was about two or so inches in total length( nowhere to even put a bolt) the trigger mortice was tapered and the trigger held in place purely by being in contact with the triggerguard putting pressure upon it. They did a very nice job of fitting these together. I am sure it takes a lot longer to do but it saved a little metal. Which might of been a consideration back in the day.  Johnny

[rsells]

The majority of the Southern mountian rifles I have seen in my part of Tennessee have screws running through the tang into the stock.  They use one, two, or three screws on a spear point tang depending upon the length of the tang.  The rifles I have seen using a tang that extends down the wrist, up and over the comb, and down the comb use two or three screws in the main portion of the tang.  However, I have seen a small number of mountain rifles that have a tang bolt going through the tang, stock, and screwed into the trigger plate.  I have been using screws going through the tang into the stock since I started in the late 70's without any issues on my Southern Mountain rifles.  However, I use a tang bolt going through the tang, stock, and screwed into the trigger plate when I build an early rifle like a Lancaster or Virginia.  Either method of attaching a tang/barrel assembly to a stock is correct on a mountain rifle.  Use the method that feels best for you.  In my experience, the smith himself is the one that is most critical when looking at their rifle when completed.
                                                              Roger Sells

[T*O*F]

A tapered wood screw is a miniature wedge.  When screwed into wood, it compresses the fibers and sets up tension.  Splitting is more common in soft wood.  This can be alleviated somewhat by counterdrilling your screw holes first, so only the threads grab.


Older screws, as made by a blacksmith using a thread plate, do not have the radical taper that today's wood screws have.  Also, they tended to be counterdrilled with a gimlet before installation and the old growth wood they used was much harder and denser than most blanks found today.  I've got a couple of original gimlets, but the wife hid them somewhere.  If you want a real kick in the gnads, try building a gun using these tapered English screws.

[Dennis Glazener]

I have always gone with the way of thinking that a tang bolt going into the trigger plate is safer.

I have built rifles both ways and I doubt there is a lot of difference if both are properly done. The Gillespie's used wood screws and I have only seen one broken wrist and that did not look to be caused by the tang screw.

If a short wood screw is used with a proper sized lead hole I can not seen why it would be weaker in the wrist than a wrist with a tang screw all the way through to the trigger plate.

A friend of mine has a Dickert rifle that his son made for him. It was leaning on a car and fell and broke through the wrist, I have had a couple of my Gillespie's (new rifles) fall after leaning them up against the work bench and so far none of them have broken. Not sure what that means!

Dennis

[Pete G.]

For what it is worth..........Most rifles that I have seen that have a crack to the rear of the lock bolt have a screwed tang. I think that over a period of time that the wood shrinks, making the tang attachment a little loose so that the breech sets back and the lock bolt whacks into the wood, causing the crack. A lot of the later period percussion rifles with a back action lock have the wood behind the drum split off. Probably from the same cause. Maybe this is why most Southern guns have multiple tang screws.
One of the reasons that a screw was promoted back in the sixties (and I assume was learned from an earlier time) was that the tension on the tang did not affect the trigger engagement. Probably irrelevant on a properly bedded breech and trigger plate, but over a period of time maybe not. I'm thinking also that the screw was possibly a more readily available hardware type item (purchased from the travelling peddler maybe?) that could at times be purchased whereas a bolt had to be fabricated. All in all I think probably the screw was perfectly adequate for a working type gun. If it were not adequate, there would not be so many of these things built and certainly not so many still hanging around, but who in their right mind would have ever expected these things would last 200 years?

Still I think the bolt is is a lot better way for a gun that is going to be used.