Trying to find some info on my fowler

[mmmike]

I inherited this old shotgun almost 30 years ago when my great grandfather died. I know practically nothing about it. Our local fair is in a couple weeks, and I'd like to enter this in the antique catagory, but I'd really like to be able to give some info with it. I realize it may have been built by a local smith, instead of a commercial company, so that much I may never know. If possible, it would be great to get some other info, such as approximate date or general location of construction...I know old furniture can be attributed to areas of the country by certain aspects of the construction...don't know if that works for old firearms also. This part of my family has been in the Ashland/Richland Counties area of Ohio since about 1810, if that has any bearing upon the origin of the gun.
I can't find any stamps or letter/number marks anywhere on the outward surfaces of the gun. The metal is rather worn and pitted, so it's possible marks used to be there, but are now gone. There is some very faintly discernible scrollwork on the iron of the action; some is nicely visible on the brasswork. There are a few symbols carved into the wood of the butt of the stock, a "+" (or a letter "t"), then what appears to be roman numerals, "VIII". No idea if this means anything, or is simply something carved there by an owner. The stock has some very nice carving on it, more so than I would expect on a simple utilitarian gun.
After disassembly, I found three stamps on the underside of the barrel.
the first is three or four times larger than the other two, it appears to be a number "3";
the next one looks to be a number "6" followed by another rounded number, a 6 or 8 or 9 maybe? the second digit is too damaged to see clearly...maybe I'm just thinking it's a number, as it is damaged, I could be way off-might be a symbol or something like that;
the last appears to be "16.6" or 166
Thanks for any help you can give!
Mike

[rich pierce]

German, I'd say, relatively cheap gun at the time.  Doesn't take away from it's adventures or family heirloom status.

[Acer Saccharum]

I would also say German, poss Belgian, as I have seen others from earlier in the 19th cent with Boar's heads, Centurion's head, or deer's....all on the bottom of the stock below the pistol grip.

I like the grip area, done in 'feathers' or what ever patten it is, it's pretty neat.

Tom

[Mike Brooks]

It's Belgian.

[TPH]

Yes, Belgian, no doubt about it. Any proof marks on the barrel?

[nord]

And the lack of proofs is my problem...

I so noted such on the AG Shotgun Forum that I'd not disagree with a Belgian origin, except for the lack of proofs and the perch belly evident in the stock.

All Belgians I've seen from this era have borne proofs. None have been carved in this particular fashion, though later inexpensive Belgians often had carved lions and bears... With jeweled eyes no less!

Given the Ohio connection, the era of manufacture, and the absence of any proofs, I have to wonder if this little fowler wasn't put together here in the US. After all, components were readily available from ca. 1840 and onward and skilled immigrants from Europe were numerous.

I would suggest a domestic gun put together with available components and carved somewhat in the style of a western NY gun. We've shown in the Library & Museum that stylistic carving such as seen on this gun was not by any means unknown, though this gun is rather crudely done compared to the master builders.

I'll conclude that I still don't discount Belgian origin. I certainly don't argue the European look of the components and the walnut stock. But where are the proofs???

[JTR]

In the text at the top, he mentions some numbers on the bottom of the barrel. Doesn't sound like proof marks, but I know diddley about Belgian barrels.
John

[T*O*F]

And the lack of proofs is my problem...

This is an assumption.  He could certainly be mistaking proof markings for numbers given the deteriorated condition of the barrel.  Applying a bit of penetrating oil with a Q-tip and rubbing vigorously with a popsicle stick will loosen some of the rust down inside the stampings without changing the condition of the barrel.  Then rubbing over them with colored chalk or crayon and wiping the surface, leaving only the medium in the stamping may reveal move  Taking a close-up will reveal things that the naked eye can't see.

Many barrel on foreign guns were not proofed if for export.

At least one set of the numbers probably indicate the bore size in millimeters.  This fact alone would indicate that the other stampings are "probably" proof marks and not numbers.  If the 16.6 is millimeters, than would indicate a bore of 0.659 inches.

[Mike Brooks]

With the amount of heavy rust on that barrel I imagine thew proofs disapeard some time ago.

[nord]

Go to <antiqueguns.com> / forums / shotguns

Photos would seem to indicate only numbers. No proofs as far as I can tell. Certainly no ELG... Which leaves me dry on a Belgian.

[mmmike]

I appreciate the lively discussion, thanks for taking the time to look...
These are all the marks under the barrel.
Mike

[mmmike]

I just measured the bore diameter, it is indeed just under 17mm wide, so the 16.6 may indicate that.
Mike

[Mike Brooks]

I have a percussion double on my lap at the moment with the same carving on the wrist. It has a Belgian proof on the bottom of the barrels. Picture coming, batteries dead at the moment.

[TPH]

"16.6" would indicate a bore of slightly less than 16 gauge, near 17 gauge and is an indication of European manufacture for the barrel at least. The amount of corrosion could account for no proof marks being visible, hard to say. The European barrel and the stock carving indicate Belgian or Eastern European to me. I could be wrong but I don't see the "perch belly" stock configuration, other than the fact that the carving gives it that shape if you squint right and I have seen that style of stock carving on well marked European single and double barreled fowlers of the mid to late 19th Century, even the reverse sway that could be mistaken for a perch bellied stock.