The wisdom of the closed, exclusive Kentucky Rifle Show

[Shreckmeister]

A collection of 7 or 8 longrifles that were on display in our local Elks lodge were stolen back in
the 1970's and never recovered.  It was an inside job, somebody had the key and nobody was
ever prosecuted.  I've been told they were locally made rifles too.  Not sure if there is a compiled
list somewhere, but I doubt it.  Maybe KRA has a file on them.  I guess a couple stolen years ago popped
up recently.  Sad topic.

[jdm]

Every once and a while the K.R.A. will publish a description of stolen long rifles.

Wade ,If you are referring to the closed show thing I can give you several examples where I've set up displays at general shows and there have been problems with the uninformed. 

[PPatch]

Can anyone detail when, where and what long rifle collection has been stolen, say in the last 30-40 years.

dp

Stolen guns, yes.
But why would you want to know that?

John

Why John?

Simple curiosity for one, and that is a good enough reason in my book. Two, and the main reason I asked: my question seems reasonable and in the context of this discussion given that one of the reasons given for keeping unknowns and non collectors out of certain shows is one aspect of security against theft.  I am also wondering because it seems to me that if a thief did steal a collection they would have a devil of a time selling it or pieces of it without it becoming known in the collecting community.

dp

[Dennis Glazener]

Was going to keep keep my mouth shut on this topic but Bama's reply fits right in with what I feel is a logical expansion into collecting original long rifles.

I have been a lover of the long rifle as long as I can remember but I have only recently became a collector. Collecting has opened a whole new world to me and has broadened my knowledge about the long rifle and its heritage. I am thankful to those that helped me become a KRA member. Thanks to them I have met new people that love the long rifle and have worked hard to presereve its heritage.

As a builder of contemporary long rifles being a KRA member has helped give me a better understanding of how the early rifles were built. Seeing the original rifles first hand I have learned more than I ever could from the pictures I had been studying.

I firmly believe that there is a natural progression from being a serious builder to a serious collector. Several reasons, serious builders are forever trying to emulate historical work, in order to do this they study original work. The more they study the more interested they become in original guns.

Many builders often don't have the disposable income to invest in original rifles. Many will save the profits from selling their contemporary builds and use them to purchase an original. Once that first original is purchased they are hooked, and the process will repeat it self over and over.

My two cents worth,
Dennis

 

[Majorjoel]

I too also agree with Bama and Dennis about the different stages that our interests take us to the point of collecting original longrifles. For me, it started with my appreciation of American history. My grandmother, who taught school in a one room country school house back in the early 20th century used to take me to the public library when I was only 4 or 5 years old. She introduced me to a fascinating world of many different wonders of fact and fiction. I was far from a child prodigy and didn't learn to read until grammar school, but from her showing me the way around the library system something took root within me. She would read to me for hours on end, putting me to sleep many times. A beautiful woman that I miss dearly. Growing up in the late 50's and through the 60's era of TV and back yard war reenactments with my many brothers and sisters (11, 12 counting me . Everything from WWII Combat (I was SGT. Saunders) to Davy Crockett's fight at the Alamo. Oh, ya, can't forget Roy Rogers fighting the hostile Indians! Not being a rich kid, monetarily, we were blessed with very rich imaginations. A great willow tree grew in the back yard and from it we fashioned everything from working fishing poles, long bows with arrows made from cat tails, and my first longrifle. It was a great childhood and one I would not trade for all of the tea in China!

[mkeen]

Please don't throw brickbats!

The KRA does appear to be a relatively closed group. All you have to do is read their application for membership. Membership in the KRA is by invitation only. You must know members to get in. It is possible to be a student of the longrifle and not know anyone who is member. I have not seen them wearing tags proclaiming member of the KRA. Maybe an Associate membership with no requirements and a term of three years would be a way to get new blood.

If you desire to handle and inspect valuable longrifles a good way is to attend pre-auction inspections. Most auctions allow perspective buyers to handle the weapons. You do not have to be a member of any group. Pook and Pook in Downingtown, PA sold a Melchoir Fordney rifle a few years ago for $28,080. Anyone could have held it at the pre-sale inspection. I did not. If I can't afford it, I do not pick it up. Trust me there are objects worth a lot more - small boxes that bring $100,000!

One of the problems in doing longrifle research is a lack of a credible journal for publishing longer articles. The KRA bulletin is fine for short articles but could not handle longer ones. The KRA website has no information on how to get an article in the bulletin or what they are looking for on their website. Another indication of a closed group. Do only members submit articles?

 Most published information on gunsmiths is what I would call very rudimentary. The information is generally very short and consists of only a paragraph or two. One gunsmith that appears on the KRA list and several books has an entry of two words and one date. Yet recently an article was written about him that covered nine pages and had 113 footnotes in a journal I'm sure very few gun collectors read. This type of article can probably be written about any gunsmith if a researcher is willing to take the time. There is a lot of work to do to promote the history of the American longrifle!

[Don Stith]

I might as well add some kerosene to the fire. First the disclaimers
I forgot to mail in the annual dues a couple of years ago so am no longer a KRA member
 I am no longer a CLA member either. I resigned in protest of the founder of CLA leaving the KRA display booth empty at the annual NRA convention
 He was protesting the NRA criticism of Bill Clinton

When I first joined KRA ( about 30 years ago) you not only had to be invited, but had to submit photos of your collection for review.
 The so caled "mini"shows required all contemporary pieces to be labelled as such.  With half the displayed pieces at current shows being contemporary and not labelled, I am not sure what is to be learned by a newcomer.
 I did enjoy the visit to Front Royal because of getting to visit with some old friends I had not seen for many years.
They  let me in despite not having membership cards.
 My wife says I have become a crotchety old @$#%. She might be right

[Mark Tyler]

Anyone living in central Pennsylvania (Blair, Bedford, Huntingdon, Centre, Clearfield, Cambria, Somerset, Fulton counties) that is interested in becoming a member of the KRA please contact me at marktyler@gmail.com and we can meet to discuss KRA membership requirements and the KRA application process. http://www.kentuckyrifleassociation.org/images/KRA_Application.pdf

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Thanks Mark...great idea..extending a hand, here!

Of interest, Antiques Magazine has published 1 article in recent memory ( The Discovery of William Black {NC} 7-8/2012) but would consider others if offered. Also "Antiques and Fine Arts" magazine has a database of several thousand American Artisans...on a quick search for prominent gunmakers of Lancaster and York....not one listed!!!

Hurricane

[Frank Graves]

We at Arms Heritage Magazine would entertain articles as well.

[smokinbuck]

It's very interesting how this thread has run the gamut from security isues to interested population base to printed word and photographs but the fact remains that there sre a lot of different opinions, and none is right or wrong, regarding how to best present our interest in our "Historical Folk Art" to the greatest number of interested builders, collectors and scholars. Perhaps an effort should be made to get a select number of board members from each related organization together and brainstorm the situation. There seems to be a lot to gain and more to lose if consencus is not found. If there is no one to follow us when we are gone, who will be there  to appreciate what we tried to preserve?
Mark

[Mark Elliott]

I would like to  pick up on Nords last point about reaching out to people generally interested in antiques and the arts.    If we want to take longrifles to art and antique lovers, then we need to take them to them where they are;  that is antique and arts shows, museums, and galleries.   That means,  taking our collections and products to shows we don't normally patronize, assuming they will have us.  I have tried that in the past only to be rejected as being inappropriate(crafts fair on church property) or illegal (crafts fair on school property).   I guess I can keep trying.   Actually,  I was asked to come to a church crafts bazaar after managing to get an article about my work in the community paper.   Unfortunately,  I talked myself out of the invitation after I told the lady who contacted me what I charged for my work.   I realized in retrospect that I made a mistake.   

We can also try to get a show in a local art gallery, but that is a tall order in the best of circumstances.    To get anything in a gallery,  you need to make friends with the gallery owner, impress them with your work, and be willing to give them a 30-50 percent cut of the sales.   The gallery is going to be more a gun or accouterment maker's venue as I can't see collectors letting the gallery take such a large cut of their sales.  Since most makers really aren't going to have enough stock for a gallery show of their own,  someone would need to put together a show that included works from many different makers.   

If we wanted to try something like a gallery show of contemporary makers in Virginia,  I would think that a show in Charlottesville would make the most sense.   It is an artist's community with many high profile individuals from many different branches of the arts living there.   The is also the highest concentration of  millionaires in Albermarle Country than any other place in the country.   Also,  there are a number of high end gun makers within a couple hours of Charlottesville.   I know that Alan Sandy already participates in an artists/craftsmen workshop tour in Albermarle.    It is something they have in that community because there are so many artisans in the area.   

Just some ideas.

[smokinbuck]

Mark,
Your ideas are good, in my opinion, but are not entirely new. After helping fund a 5 volume set of books on Ohio Gunmakers, the Ohio State Historical Society has said no to doing a display consisting of some of their rifles and some of ours, with us acting as docents. More than once I might add. It is my intention to talk with the local art museum about the same thing. I actually envision a travelling display utilizing several Art museums. These would not be a "sales" venue but a public educational venue, controlled and secured.
Mark 

[spgordon]

Of interest, Antiques Magazine has published 1 article in recent memory ( The Discovery of William Black {NC} 7-8/2012) but would consider others if offered. Also "Antiques and Fine Arts" magazine has a database of several thousand American Artisans...on a quick search for prominent gunmakers of Lancaster and York....not one listed!!!

This is very interesting--and a great point. I'm writing partly to just make sure we keep focused on both threads here: most people responding are discussing how to get more people and perhaps a younger generation into gun shows or how to make collections of longrifles more widely available to the public in exhibits and museums or historical societies.

But the other way to generate interest--and generate research, which will lead to new knowledge (and probably higher values for the objects themselves)--is through publishing articles or books that reach non-collectors. Martin Keen wrote a bit about this in this thread, and now Hurricane has as well. Antiques Magazine has a history of accepting articles like this: Henry Kauffman published pieces on Dickert and Gonter in the 1950s, I think, there. The Chronicle of Early American industries (http://earlyamericanindustries.org/publications.html) would surely publish work on gunsmiths (they just published a very long essay on the screw auger, which used some new research on William Henry of Lancaster). I think that, in the long run, it is only through publishing our research on longrifles and the surrounding history that will ensure that the art of the longrifle gains recognition from those other than collectors.

Scott

[DLJ6]

Input from a newb.
I just joined the CLA and Front Royal was my first show. I spent a couple of hours looking and talking Friday evening.
I'm 52yo and have been BP shooting and hunting off and on for about 20 years with factory built repros. A couple few months ago my oldest daughter's boyfriend mentioned that he was interested in looking into building flintlocks. She is 25 and he 28, they both attended the show with me. We met some great folks and shared in some interesting conversations. I was actually surprised that there where many more antique arms present then there where "contemporary". It was a great pleasure to meet and chat with Mr. Goehring and his daughter.
As someone new to the format, I have no issue with the closed show concept. I suspect that folks interested will find a way to get involved just as my daughters friend has. That being said, potential open events such as those described above by my fellow Virginian Mr. Elliot, would be a welcomed alternative and no doubt beneficial to this cottage industry / art. 
Since the show I have been working a bit of curly maple to fit a small hatchet head that the Goehrings sold me ...while strongly contemplating ordering a kit from Mr. Dunlap with which to eventually fashion a squirrel rifle.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I would like to  pick up on Nords last point about reaching out to people generally interested in antiques and the arts.    If we want to take longrifles to art and antique lovers, then we need to take them to them where they are;  that is antique and arts shows, museums, and galleries.   That means,  taking our collections and products to shows we don't normally patronize, assuming they will have us.  I have tried that in the past only to be rejected as being inappropriate(crafts fair on church property) or illegal (crafts fair on school property).   I guess I can keep trying.   Actually,  I was asked to come to a church crafts bazaar after managing to get an article about my work in the community paper.   Unfortunately,  I talked myself out of the invitation after I told the lady who contacted me what I charged for my work.   I realized in retrospect that I made a mistake.   

We can also try to get a show in a local art gallery, but that is a tall order in the best of circumstances.    To get anything in a gallery,  you need to make friends with the gallery owner, impress them with your work, and be willing to give them a 30-50 percent cut of the sales.   The gallery is going to be more a gun or accouterment maker's venue as I can't see collectors letting the gallery take such a large cut of their sales.  Since most makers really aren't going to have enough stock for a gallery show of their own,  someone would need to put together a show that included works from many different makers.   

If we wanted to try something like a gallery show of contemporary makers in Virginia,  I would think that a show in Charlottesville would make the most sense.   It is an artist's community with many high profile individuals from many different branches of the arts living there.   The is also the highest concentration of  millionaires in Albermarle Country than any other place in the country.   Also,  there are a number of high end gun makers within a couple hours of Charlottesville.   I know that Alan Sandy already participates in an artists/craftsmen workshop tour in Albermarle.    It is something they have in that community because there are so many artisans in the area.   

Just some ideas.

Mark makes some good points here.  When an even is advertised as a gun show it gets painted with that brush and may not be an invitation to others.

Coryjoe

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I am not a member of the KRA and do not know much about it other than I like their CD roms I have. 

I see it as no different than any other professional conference that I attend as a historian.  The purpose of these events is often to bring a select group of people together for the purposes of discussion within the field.

Coryjoe

[nord]

Cory,

True enough about the KRA and no criticism for such meetings. There's a time and place for everything.

All we're discussing is proactive outreach to educate and hopefully interest those who would otherwise know very little or nothing about our fantastic works of art.

Look... We at ALR are patting ourselves on the back for our efforts to welcome new folks and introduce them to the long rifle. And we are welcoming! The problem is that our format requires one to visit our website before we can welcome them. How many out there who would be otherwise interested never even know our site exists?

KRA? Why would anyone who knows nothing about our unique artworks ever give the KRA site a second glance? Obviously they're like that nasty NRA. Whatever could a gun have to do with fine art? It's sad but true.

Do you see where I'm going here? Somehow we need to remove the stigma of our antiques being or having been at one time a firearm. You and I may not have a problem but a good portion of affluent and otherwise interested art collectors immediately turn away when gun or rifle is mentioned. This is what we're seeking to address.

Your ideas are most welcome. Personal involvement would be even better!

[jdm]

Many states have a magazine put out by there local conservation. Here it's " The Missouri Conservationist " . I'VE seen articles in ours about black powder hunting. That could possibly be expanded on to include the history and artisan angle.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Thank you very much for your thoughts. We will gather them together and begin a discussion with all who offered thoughts on how to move forward. Perhaps the time has come and the ideas put forth that will place " The Kentucky  Rifle" again in the place it deserves with the public whose passions lie with American history, material culture and fine arts. Anyone wishing to continue this discussion, add ideas and participate, please contact me directly and I will keep you informed and ask for your voluntary participation when appropriate. Much will happen!!
Hurricane
Fred garner, M.D.

fgarner@verizon.net

703-451-2815