I hate patent plugs, so I got yet another offshore screwdriver kit.

[Bob Roller]

The 50 caliber barrel I recenrty listed for sale has a breech I made and it has a "flue" 3/8" diameter that holds
more than 20 grains of powder.The 58 caliber rifle I made in 2008 had the same thing and it fired like a caplock.
I have seen complaints about these breeches with a 1/4" "flue" that fouled quickly and I think these were imported guns.Going again to the Brits,they did bring the flintlock to its ultimate and final conclusion before the caplock took over and we should be glad so many of their examaples are still here to handle and study in both flint and percussion venues.
Bob Roller

[rfd]

I agree,  Bob.  Small diameter flues (and bores, to a degree) will typically foul easier than larger such things, just less surface area to BP residue coat.  A typical .50 bore GPR via Investarms has a better, more open flue, but flue issues will be flue issues to some of us and I'd rather not go that route if possible.

[rich pierce]

The design of the patent breech makes all the difference. A friend had a commercial longrifle with a patent breech. The darn thing had a quarter inch counterbore!  And a huge ledge or step from the bore to the counterbored patent breech. We drilled it out closer to bore diameter and coned the edge. Ignition was superb after this. I’d not lump all patent breeched together as problematic. If they were all problematic then higher end fur trade and plains rifles would not have had them. Unbreech it and see what’s going on.   At the very least come the transition a bit and polish it. If it’s a minuscule cavity it will never work well.

[smylee grouch]

rfd, in that I've only been doing this for 50 some years I have some learning to do so if you would be so kind as to explain to me how you push fouling into your so called " flue " when you load every shot I would be educated. Seems to me the powder charge should be in front of the " flue " thus preventing any fouling from getting that far when you load. I know thats how it works when I shoot , some times over 50 shots in a row

[rfd]

The design of the patent breech makes all the difference. A friend had a commercial longrifle with a patent breech. The darn thing had a quarter inch counterbore!  And a huge ledge or step from the bore to the counterbored patent breech. We drilled it out closer to bore diameter and coned the edge. Ignition was superb after this. I’d not lump all patent breeched together as problematic. If they were all problematic then higher end fur trade and plains rifles would not have had them. Unbreech it and see what’s going on.   At the very least come the transition a bit and polish it. If it’s a minuscule cavity it will never work well.

'

Yes, I agree.  Small flue diameters are an issue.  However, ignition isn't my concern with these offshore patent breech plugs, it's the need -at times- for flue cleaning, which requires having another tool in the kit to manipulate and use.

Those that have no issues with offshore patent breech plugs, more power to ya, awesome.

[Daryl]

rfd, in that I've only been doing this for 50 some years I have some learning to do so if you would be so kind as to explain to me how you push fouling into your so called " flue " when you load every shot I would be educated. Seems to me the powder charge should be in front of the " flue " thus preventing any fouling from getting that far when you load. I know thats how it works when I shoot , some times over 50 shots in a row

Exactly, SmyleeG. Seems to me, the OP and others have created problems & therefore needed a solution to correct this generated problem, where there actually are none for those of us who have actually done a ton of shooting for the last 40 to 50 years with NEVER having to wipe the bore or clean a "FLUE" while shooting - or afterwards.  The flash channel in a patent breech gets perfectly cleaned by the water sucked into the bore through the vent or nipple seat and pumped out with the action of the cleaning rod with patch. iIn, out, in out - that kind'a motion. 

[rfd]

I can only marvel at and respect your collective abilities, Mr Daryl and Mr Grouch  

[Daryl]

LOL- we aren't alone rfd.
Everyone in this neck of the woods and the 200 or so that showed up at Hefley Creek rendezvous every year,
didn't have to wipe their bores either, while shooting.
We actually marvel that anyone has to. 
Maybe physics works differently for them?

[rfd]

It's all good one way or t'other, sez I! 

[moleeyes36]

LOL- we aren't alone rfd.
Everyone in this neck of the woods and the 200 or so that showed up at Hefley Creek rendezvous every year,
didn't have to wipe their bores either, while shooting.
We actually marvel that anyone has to. 
Maybe physics works differently for them?

Daryl, tis a long trek from Florida to British Columbia, but a tight fitting wet patch and ball combo works the same for me here as it does for you in the Great White North.  No fouling or swabbing between shots, just shooting.

Don Richards

[Daryl]

Folks like us are legion, Don.

[Dphariss]

I hate to say this but must. Probably putting my head in the lions mouth.
There is nothing wrong with a proper "patent" breech either flint or percussion. But the factory mades guns are made to be as "cost efficient" as possible. And the people designing them may well be completely clueless as to ML firearms as well people doing the actual machinework/assembly. Some of the stuff produced over the  last 50 odd years is virtually criminal.
Some of the cheap stuff I have seen or been told of over the years is REALLY scary.
Anyone else remember the "kits" that were being sold in the 1970s or 80s with TWO PIECE BARRELS? Another one piece barrel version of this was taken to a gunsmith I knew because it would not fire. The "snail" that the nipple screwed into was threaded into the barrel and when the smith turned it 1/4 turn it FELL OUT OF THE BARREL. 18th and 19th c designs, by and large, are meant to be assembled by someone who KNOWS HOW THEY WORK and HOW THEY MUST BE ASSEMBLED to be safe and reliable. This is why QUALITY reproductions of the brass suppository guns last 1/2 of the 19th c cost more, usually a LOT more, than the current designs.
You get what you pay for in most cases. Few/no factory made MLs are properly breeched no matter who makes them. I debreeched a Browning Mountain Rifle about 20 years ago and it had a really nice fouling trap in front of the breech plug threads. I thought of giving it back unassembled.
So, if one insists on buying low cost, poorly designed and executed items then one has no basis for complaint. In the end its a self-inflicted wound.
Sorry but its just a fact and its been true for a very long time and it does not only apply to ML arms.
AND there are American made "patent" breeches sold by suppliers that suck as well.
Here are photos of a pretty good FL breech design, but it does not like poorly made BP much. The Nock breech design dates to the 1780s and is the original Patent Breech from my reading. I clean it in a bucket of water and almost never remove the "clean out" screw on the left side (historically the design requires a cross drilled hole for the antechamber). The antechamber is never dirty when I have pulled the screw after cleaning.

Very reliable and very consistent in speed from shot to shot according to Larry Pletcher's tests of breech designs.
I have a 50 cal swivel breech with "patent" breeches that have a 3/8" diameter chamber and its only a little more trouble to clean than a flat breech. But I use a lot a water. If I had it to do again (did these over 20 years ago) I would make the threaded section a little shorter. The barrel dimension required a 5/8" plug thread. Some place I have a photo of the breeches out of the barrel but can't find it.

[Leatherbark]

Swabbing a chambered breech in between shots is the reason for clogging the flue.  Shoot the rifle, pour the powder with a patch ball combination that pushes the fouling down on top of the powder and they'll shoot pretty darn reliably.  I watch people at the range during N.M.L.R.A matches have misfires all the time. They swab in between shots and push gunk into their chambered/ patent breech and before the end of the 20 shot match they have a misfire and have to have the rangemaster blow it out. Not all swabbers have this problem. They say swabbing should pull most of the fouling out instead of pushing it down. I'd say that would take some adjustments to the jag/patch dimensions.  If I am inclined to swab I always swab as I load the ball against the powder with the range rod during a match.

Bob

[smylee grouch]

I really like this breech Dan posted a pic of. Drilled out and coned and looks like it might be polished. Powder goes in freely and isn't that hard to clean when done properly flushed. If anyone finds muzzle loaders hard to clean they might be doing it wrong or are just in the wrong game in the first place. 

[rfd]

.... If anyone finds muzzle loaders hard to clean they might be doing it wrong or are just in the wrong game in the first place. 

I beg your pardon?

[Ky-Flinter]

Gentlemen, let's remain civil.  We're all friends here, right?

[smylee grouch]

Thanks Ron and I will add that I don't find cleaning muzzleloaders hard to do so that is the reason for my post. No offense was intended just an opinion. 

[rfd]

Cleaning muzzleloaders is NOT the issue, Mr Grouch. 

[tecum-tha]

A lousy patent breech almost made me quit muzzleloading.
Parents not interested in those things, I set out at 18 years old to buy a Pedersoli Hatfield Flintlock Rifle. Even paid an additional  300 Marks for the maple stock for a total of 1000 Marks.
I got all the stuff, German Black Powder licence alloed to get black powder. .50 cal, .490 RB, some greased pre-cut patches etc.
German shooting house, 1 hour drive, 50m target area 24x24"  fully enclosed, loaded it up with recommended load.
First shot fired, reload. Harder to load, prime the pan, flash in the pan. 10 more flashes in the pan. Left with loaded gun, pulled load at home. Very messy to clean.
Next weekend, same $#*&. Fired twice, then no more.
No other flintlock shooters. All other shooters said, flintlocks are unreliable and thats why they use percussion.
After this, the rifle was retired. Didn't want to make a complete idiot out of me each time.
Fast forward a few years. Been on bowhunting trip in the US and friend showed me how to shoot his percussion hawken.
I killed a few deer with the TC he gave me during regular gun season. Friend took me to one of his friends who is a National Champion Shooting flintlocks. He let me shoot his all afternoon. Not one misfire.
Result: Ordered custom rifle from a G.L. Jones, obviously a reputable builder. All internet dealings. Rifle took 2 years longer than I was told. Stupidity of paying in full at time of order. But, rifle went boom every time.
Took it back to Germany. Rifle went boom everytime.
Breath some smoke you percussion dudes.
Next time in the US, went hunting with rifle late November. Cold November. Missed deer I could have killed with my longbow. What the heck. I was very close to smack this rifle against a tree.
Back to the National Champion. He took rifle and bullseye everytime. Watched me shooting it and said. Length of pull too long, rifle moves while you reach front trigger when you have more clothes on than a T-Shirt. Ok, rifle did not get smashed against tree.
Went home with ToW German Jaeger kit, got me a plank in Germany and built a take down .62 cal Jaeger from scratch.
Went back hunting in the US, heart shot nice 8 point with it, off hand, cold November.
Fast forward, retiring from the Armed Forces left me a lor of time but limited funds. By then I knew more about the internals of guns than as a dumb 18 year old
Old Pedersoli Hatfield would be restocked and converted into a J. Beck Style rifle, stocked from the remains of the take down Jaeger Cherry plank. This included cutting the barrel off and installing a correct flint breech. When I cut this barrel off, the patent breech was not even a1/4 diameter and over an inch deep. No wonder this thing never fired well but the first time.
Since then, I am convinced, that percussion ignition was so successful because it improved the flintlocks ignition, but by converting to percussion, it kept the flint breech in most cases. That was making the guns very reliable and easy to maintain.
Even on Hawkens, the patent breeches create "snap a caps" during hunting. Experience shows, that if you store percussion rifles muzzle down, there are no issues with your first hunting shot. No oil will clogg the flash channel.

[Daryl]

There is a learning curve, for sure.  Good literature, like "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned Roberts was a GREAT help to me.
I find cleaning any of my ML guns to be from a 5 minute to 10 minute job. The ones that take longer, are the long barreled ones, a 38"
.36 flinter and .44" .50 cal. Both of these use pins, which takes a wee bit longer, along with the longer barrels.
The 2 easiest are the single wedg(ies) on the 20bore flint and .69 capper, both with patent breeches. They both clean up in 5 minutes or less.

[Bob Roller]

Have you ever talked to Guenter Stifter in Trimbs or Helmut Mohr in Mayen Hausen?Either of these men could have helped with any muzzleloading problems in Germany.
Bob Roller

[rfd]

I appreciate all the good, constructive replies - thank you.