Original cased rifle

[Kevin Alexander]

They are still out there. An elderly gentleman brought this in my office the other day and said it was for sale. He had had it since 1960. Lockable wood case still with the key. Still has all the accessories. Detachable front globe sight, with windage rear sight. Pretty cool. I don’t know much about it. Any help would be appreciated.

[Daryl]

Interesting.  Seems obvious from the single cast slug, it is a picket (ball) rifle, however there is no provision for a guide bullet starter.
No pictures of the rifle put together. Appears to be a rod as well.  Could we see it assembled & perhaps with a picture showing better,
 the front sight?

[JHeath]

I'm not an expert. But it looks like a mid -19th Century New York state made halfstock with a barrel purchased from Remington. Remington was originally a barrel maker in upstate NY and sold barrels to builders. The scroll trigger guard, checkered wrist, and stepped forend tip are English-influenced, but English trigger guards were typically steel. This one is brass. A typical NY halfstock trigger guard was brass and had hooks. This rifle has a hooked breech and considering the case and barrel wedges appears to have been intended as a sort of "takedown" model. The rear half barrel shape looks odd in the photo. Is it octagon-to-round?

Look at the upper rifle here:

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_A__LOT_OF_2__NEW_YORK_STYLE_AND_H_MOLIS_HALF_STOC-LOT489385.aspx

[JHeath]

If you push the trigger forward, does it "set"?

Here's one with the target sight fitted in the socket, despite there being an open sight on the barrel.

A set-trigger and that socket might suggest a target rifle.

https://live.amoskeagauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/18/lot/6664?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F18

[Kevin Alexander]

This rifle was in my possession for just a few days. It is now at Lee Shavers getting cleaned up a bit and checked to see that it functions correctly. He said the barrel was interesting and it took some time to make. It is flat on top only past the rear sight and on the side it has what I call small narrow flats similar to a Rigby style flats. He said a lot of hammer and file work went into making the barrel. The globe front sight has a small hole in the bottom that sits over a small pin in the barrel and at the back of the globe there is a tab on the bottom that has a screw that goes through the tab into a small hole in the barrel and that holds it onto the barrel. I wish I had more photos but its about done and I will be picking it back up soon.

The gunsmith on the barrel is a known gunsmith and his name appears on page 174 of Ned Roberts book “The Muzzleloading Cap Rifle”. I believe the gunsmith was known at the time an in some record books somewhere  but as far as any surviving rifles they are non existent.

I am not a collector or know much about these rifles, I just thought it was an interesting rifle and didn’t want it to fall into the wrong hand’s because I know where it was headed. It needs to go to a collector.
After I get it back I will post more photos.
Thanks for any additional information anyone could give.

Kevin Alexander.

[Steve Collward]

Kevin,
   You've found a really nice example of a cased rifle from Western New York.
   Vol. 3, page 1319 of The N.Y.S. Firearms Trade (Swinney&Rowe) list "W. Raymond" being in Albion, N.Y. 1835-1875.  It is further cited that although his rifles are marked "W. Raymond/Albion, N.Y." census records list his first name as Hiram.  Swinney suggests that one possibility is that he may have been "W. Hiram" or "Hiram W."   
   It is also noted that two other "W. Raymond/Albion, N.Y." marked rifles have been observed.  One in a private collection, the other at an auction.
Hope this is of some help.
   

[Kevin Alexander]

Steve, Thank you very much for the information. I assume there are collectors out there that would be interested in this rifle but I have no way of letting them know about it or what this rifle is worth. I know absolutely nothing about original muzzleloaders. With that said I probably paid too much for it.

Thanks everyone for the information.

Kevin Alexander

[JBJ]

Is that a bullet starter that I see there among the accessories or have I had too much coffee this morning?
J.B.

[Kevin Alexander]

It’s a bullet starter and those pointed bullet nose fits right up in that starter. The started was made to fit the bullets from that mold.

KA

[Daryl]

I have seen pictures of the Remington "Picket" Barrels and they pretty much ALL had the muzzle turned for a guide bullet starter.
That the short starter in this 'cased gun' has the opening to fit the bullet, it would certainly help in keeping the bullet's nose in line
with the bore's axis.  If the rod also had a bore guide to keep the rod and the bullet's nose in line, then a guide bullet starter would
 be less important.

[JHeath]

Steve, Thank you very much for the information. I assume there are collectors out there that would be interested in this rifle but I have no way of letting them know about it or what this rifle is worth. I know absolutely nothing about original muzzleloaders. With that said I probably paid too much for it.

Thanks everyone for the information.

Kevin Alexander

Auction results aren't necessarily a good measure. That one I linked as an example of a NY rifle went really, really cheap. Sometimes a guy can buy a yacht at auction for $25 because nobody else bid.

[Bob Roller]

An interesting relic.I agree with the idea of a New York target rifle and the Remington barrel blanks were sold to any and all who wanted them.My N.G.Whitmore rifle had one marked cast steel and I recall reading they came with a 1/4" pilot holes so the gunsmith could drill and ream it to whatever needed.This gun shows years of neglect and a full length picture of both sides will be a big help.The lock appears to be an ordinary hardware store type.I have always been partial to these guns and the writings of Major Ned Roberts were my guides from the start and I still have E.M.Farris's copy given to him by the author. Major Roberts disavowed any knowledge of the flintlock long rifles but gave Hacker Martin a good write up in his book "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle"which is the one I have.
Bob Roller

[Kevin Alexander]

I don’t know much about these old guns but I thought that for being 150 to 185 years old it wasn’t in that bad of shape.
Especially for making the trip from NY to Missouri. How the owners kept everything together and didn’t even loose the key to the lockable case is beyond me.

[Kevin Alexander]

My gunsmith called and said this rifle is done and I will go get it Friday this week. Can’t wait to see it and the case it’s in. I will post better photos after I receive it. Thanks for everyone’s help and let me know the areas that are important to get in the new photos I’ll be taking. I find it interesting that this rifle was made in NY and made it all the way to Missouri at some point in history. What is also amazing is that it’s still complete and in the lockable wood case, with the key no less. I would have thought the key would be lost a long time ago. I’ll probably be the one to loose it.

KA

[Daryl]

Looking forward to seeing it 'anew.

[Dphariss]

Since its a round barrel, it could have had a guide starter, I doubt that the one shown was what came with it originally. Good chance its a gain twist barrel ending in a twist in the 30-36” range. And its possible it could have been shortened slightly at the muzzle.
It appears the pewter nose cap was poured on an octagonal barrel. ?? Photos create a lot of questions. Rebarrel maybe?
This barrel contour is pretty strange and is more like a English or even a round Sharps barrel with a “Rigby” flat.