Author Topic: KY Rifle ID initials help  (Read 1536 times)

Offline AZshot

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KY Rifle ID initials help
« on: December 20, 2021, 02:58:10 AM »
Hi, could this be a Jamestown school.  What do yall think?
Can anyone recognize the signature?  I'm very pleased with it, it has some good things and bads, like most old rifles.  One bad is I believe the trigger guard was replaced.  It doesn't look like any of the NC rifles I'm seeing, with the spurs curving forward.  And the brass is heavy, not refined and thinner.  The pins near the trigger seem to be related to it somehow too...













« Last Edit: February 06, 2023, 02:21:20 AM by AZshot »

Offline AZshot

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2021, 04:26:52 PM »
My wife is the best researcher, she's going to help me search for the maker based on the engraved initials.  As always with cursive script, it's difficult to be sure of the letters you are looking at at first.  That is the first step, if no one recognizes the signature itself.  I don't want her searching the wrong letters. 

This shows some signatures in NC in the 1800s, lots of variation.
http://www.moonzstuff.com/articles/oldhandwriting.html So I bear in mind there are individual differences, no person's letters is going to match exactly a Roundhand, Copperplate, or Spencerian style, the three I think this looks the most like.  These and others were from the era.  More than you'd ever want to know about early American script is here:
https://pennavolans.com/19th-20th-penmanship-in-the-usa/

The first letter I believe is an "I".  The second I believe is a "T".  Although the first could be a J, I don't believe it is but it's a difficult one.  Or the second could be a P, it doesn't look likely.  Another part I don't understand is that third letter.  It looks lower case to me....and why does it NOT have a period behind it, as the first two letters do?  Could it mean something like "junior" or "esquire" or such?  But what if that 3rd letter is the all-important last name? 

Here is a comparison with Copperplate, Roundhand, and Spencer cursive.


Offline Tanselman

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2021, 02:53:26 AM »
I think there is a good chance this is not a Jamestown rifle, although it may have NC influences. We may need to look more broadly to find this gunmaker. I also think we may need to look at some old barrel signatures to get a grasp on what the barrel initials are. I read them as "J T C," but others may read them differently.

One detail that may hold a clue is the cheekpiece star, with four large points, and four very tiny points, with the top and bottom large points being rather "chubby" in appearance. A related star was used in several NC schools such as Salem, Mecklenberg, and Catawba, but those stars, while somewhat similar, are more "kissing cousins" than twins. I don't think that type star was used as a cheekpiece inlay in the Jamestown school. but maybe I've missed a couple guns.

In looking a little broader than just NC, there was a gunmaker in Kentucky, who came from NC as a child, and worked in Breckinridge County, KY, below Louisville and along the Ohio River, who used an identical cheek star and also liked to decorate his rifles with numerous German silver inlays. He was Sanford P. Pool, who was trained by his father, Stephen P. Pool, who learned the trade back in NC. While the barrel initials indicate your rifle was made by a different gunmaker, the slim, racy lines of the butt stock, general stock architecture, and generous use of German silver are very similar to work by Sanford Pool of Breckinridge Co. I checked the county listings for any matching initials among its known gunmakers, and one gunmaker in Breckinridge Co. comes close. He is John J. Compton, born in KY in 1827, working there as a gunsmith in 1850 census. I have not seen a rifle by Compton, but it probably would look somewhat similar to the work of his peer, Sanford Pool, a well-known [perhaps best known] maker in Breckinridge Co. in the 1840s and 1850s. Perhaps Compton is not the right man, but the initials and timeframe are close, and your gun looks like it could be a KY product based on inlays and architecture [slim with strong toe and strong comb]. 

But the real point here is not to limit yourself with assumptions; look more widely, perhaps with NC ties, and eventually you should find the man. Your gun is simply too good to be the only one out there, and eventually the maker will be found.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 06:54:54 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Rick Anthony

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2021, 08:48:31 AM »
That is an interesting and apparently well cared for rifle. Thank you AZshot for posting the pictures. Not to be hijacking the OP's thread, but I got a little excited when I read the post of Tanselman's about the gunmakers of Breckinridge County, Ky. I am a native of Breckinridge County, some of my family having been here since the mid 1800's. I have been enlightened by the information about the gunmaker families of Pool and Compton. This is new info to me. I have seen and handled a similar rifle in architecture and age to this that was made by another Breckinridge County gunmaker named Aaron Dresser who supposedly had a shop in the Clifton Mills community on Sinking Creek, in the north central part of the county, about 5 miles from where I live. Tanselman, have you ever seen any reference to this gunmaker? Just curious.       
                                                                                          Rick Anthony
                                                                                                       
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Offline AZshot

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2021, 06:18:57 PM »
Thanks for the ideas Shelby.  The reasons I was thinking this was a Jamestown, NC rifle were moderate and need to be substantiated.  I've contacted Michael Briggs. 

- The main Jamestown feature to me was the long, 3 screw tang.  I don't know how common those are in other schools.
- The myriad of tacked on silver seems common there, regardless of what the designs are.  I do wonder about that circle behind the tang, almost covering it.  May have been added later.  If silver was added, this will be very hard to ID unless looking at the stock architecture and the tang and initials.
- I see the stars varied quite a bit in styles, by the skill and idea of the smith. I know they were a common feature in lots of regions, so am not basing much on that.  I do see some Rowan and Salem stars are similar.  And not many Jamestown, you're right.
- The very thin wrist and high comb.
- The thin butt. 
- The triggers I'm still looking at and thinking about.  Trigger guard already mentioned may be replaced. 

Thanks and keep the analysis coming!
« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 07:08:43 PM by AZshot »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2021, 08:10:45 PM »
Rick, the entry in my book, "Kentucky Gunmakers 1775-1900," reads as follows:

Aaron Dressor, working as a gunsmith in Hardinsburg, Breckinridge County, Kentucky, from before 1850 until after 1860. Dressor worked as a gunmaker, farmer, and later in life a county surveyor. He was born in Vermont in 1809. Source: 1850, 1860 Federal Census, Kentucky Division.

Volume I illustrates Breckinridge County rifles by both Stephen P. Pool and his son, Sanford P. Pool [who made the Ger. silver inlaid guns].

Any chance you could get a couple photos of the Dressor rifle you have seen??? I'd greatly appreciate seeing it. If so, it would help the most if you could get a standard "half-shot" of front and back sides, showing the full butt out to about 8" past lock plate... plus a full-length view of front side. It would also be helpful to see an image of the barrel signature, since you mentioned it was "Dresser" and I have picked it up as "Dressor."

Shelby Gallien

Offline mbriggs

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2021, 08:18:00 PM »
Hi Garrett,
I am sorry it has taken me a few days to respond as I have been traveling out of state and just got home.

I am not sure what you have, but I do know that you do not have a Jamestown rifle.  I have owned over 300 of them and can speak with some authority.

The only thing I see that is correct for Jamestown on your rifle is the three screw rounded barrel tang.  Over the years I have seen a number of different rifles from other states with this feature so it was not exclusive to Jamestown.

The stock architecture is not correct for the Jamestown School.  While the Jamestown makers used a lot of silver inlays, the usually fit to general patterns, and I have not seen one with the pattern of inlays that are on your rifle.

Overall, I think your new longrifle is very attractive, but have no idea where it was made or who made it.  The stock architecture does not fit any of the nine longrifle schools that existed in North Carolina.

If you heart is still set on collecting Jamestown rifles, I was recently consigned three Jamestown rifles that are now available for sale.

1. Is an outstanding tiger-striped maple stock with many silver inlays signed by Anderson Lamb for $2,800.

2. Is in average Jamestown with silver inlays signed by Henry Wright for $2,400.

3. Is an average Jamestown with brass cap box signed by Solomon H. Ward for $2,200.

If any of these sound of interest for you send me an email and I will send you photos.

Thanks and Merry Christmas!!!

Michael   
C. Michael Briggs

Offline AZshot

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2021, 08:43:20 PM »
Thanks for that detailed answer, I appreciate it.  I was starting to feel I was guessing wrong on it, but waited to hear from you.  I will keep it for a "close call" purchase example, and try to figure out who made it as I go.  Thank you for the information on the rifles you have for sale too.  I'll let you know if I want one. 
Merry Christmas to all.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2021, 08:54:18 PM »
AZshot... the guard is absolutely correct for a rifle made in Kentucky close to the Ohio River, so I'm guessing it is original to your rifle, unless you see scars that tell you otherwise.

Shelby Gallien

Offline AZshot

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2021, 10:40:31 PM »
Thanks, it fits pretty well in it's inlets, I can't figure out why there are the pins/nails though, and they seem to bow it up at the front base.  (click for larger)

« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 10:53:49 PM by AZshot »

Offline Tanselman

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2021, 12:10:06 AM »
Looks like those "nails" have replaced the original pins to attach the guard at the front and rear. Not sure why the old pins would have been removed a number of times, eventually requiring the new, larger modern nails to be used, but that's what it looks like. I'd bet the modern nails are larger in diameter than the original pins, and someone "opened up" the holes on the guard's tabs to accomodate the larger pins... and in the process "wallered out" the tab holes [not necessarily in the right direction] to where the guard doesn't fit as tightly as it originally did. But to me, the guard looks original and correct for the rifle.

If you look at the guard's rear spur where it runs up to meet the rear extension, you will see the inside edge is flat, rather than a soft curve. When a flat edge is present, it most often indicates a rifle made near the Ohio River, and often on the KY side.

Shelby Gallien

Offline AZshot

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2021, 12:29:42 AM »
Excellent forensics!  Thanks.

Offline Rick Anthony

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Re: NC Jamestown School rifle? ID initials help
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2021, 05:20:30 AM »
Tanselman,  sent you a pm.   Rick Anthony
Uncle Hiram