.40 Bedford, Wigle Patch, Powder Velocity Tests

[Daryl]

What is a "Wigle" patch?

[northmn]

Chronographs are interesting in that they do give the shooter an idea of what he is trying to achieve for some purposes.   Are they necessary?  Not really.  About the best information they give is the comparison to published data.  In some cases I found the loads hotter and in some not as hot.  As to supercharging a small bore.  There is a point where one should go bigger if more power is needed.  The 40 seems to be very popular for target shooting now days.  I built my first one in the late 1980's I think and it was the first 40 on the block.  After shooting it a lot against other calibers and shooters, I bought a 45 barrel and decided for my personal needs the 45 would be better.  Obviously Herb loves the 40, which is a personal choice and it suits his needs.  I do not have any use for any loads much over 50 grains of 3f in mine and shoot far more lighter loads. 

DP

[Herb]

Daryl, it is my copy of an original Jacob Wigle rifle.  I should have punctuated that title differently.  Mike,I said above that I liked to shoot as little powder as would give the best groups.  I have shot 40 grains of Goex 3F almost exclusively, but I tried these heavier charges because Daryl said they were the best he found in his rifles.  I test them for accuracy and velocity, but will never shoot these heavy loads except in this testing.  I hunt rabbits with my .40s, making head shots with 40 grains of powder, but would shoot even less if those loads were more accurate.  So I test these just to see what they do, because I know what milder loads do.  If you think they are excessive, the Lyman Black Powder Handbook (1st edition, they do not show .40 loads in the second) had maximum loads of 110 grains of C&H 3F powder with an .028 patch at 2333 fps.  And 80 grains of G-O 3F, which may be more like present Goex 3F, at 2255 fps.

And some of those loads scattered, but I learned something in shooting them.  Everyone believes there are accurate loads and if I knew what they were I'd go straight there and not have to experiment for them.  But I showed everything from a day's shooting, not just the billfold groups.  I also shoot .45, .50, .54 and .58 calibers, and it is a lot cheaper to experiment with .40's than those.   I posted this thread separate from the other chronograph thread going now, and if anyone else has chronograph data and targets, I'd like to see them.

[Mike R]

Thanks for the explanation, Herb--by the way those are fine looking rifles you have made.  What I meant by excessive was that for the caliber and considering the 'shot pattern' resulting from the heavier loads, the heavy charges seemed too high. I have the Lyman 1st Ed. and refer to it often [as I have no chrony] for intelligence about loads. What the charts do not tell is about accuracy as you know.  What they do tell is that for hunting, one should match the caliber to the game rather than goosing up velocities of small bores to try to achieve energies of big ones [which as you said you were not trying to do].  I have read what is perhaps an old wives tale[?] that rifles tend to have two accuracy loads--one low and one high.  I have not tested this.  I have read that [likley rifling twist dependent] most rifles are more accurate with 'lighter' loads--especially loads that achieve 1400-1600 fps. Walter Cline did alot of testing and was of the opinion that 1400fps+/- was the best target load for most rifles.  For hunting I try to achieve a higher velocity [at least 1600 fps] compatible with accuracy and downrange energy matched to the game sought.  Typical loads for me are 24 gr fffg in my .32, 40 gr fffg in my .40, 50-65 gr fffg in my .45, 70-75 gr fffg in my .50, 85 gr ffg in my .54...etc.  The target shooter who made my .50 uses 60 gr fffg in his identical rifle and wins competitions with it, but I went up a bit to achieve more energy for hunting.  For small game I require small groups at the range, which trumps velocity any day.

[don getz]

Food for thought.   In looking at some of the targets above, the question is, when does a "group" become a "pattern",
I just had to ask that........Don

[Roger Fisher]

Food for thought.   In looking at some of the targets above, the question is, when does a "group" become a "pattern",
I just had to ask that........Don

I can answer that!!! In my case, at least, my group shot from a rest of near any kind, log, stix, bench dead steer, stump (without the hornets), staff changes to a pattern when I shoot offhand

[Herb]

Mike, thanks for the replly.  You sound smarter than your average bear on this subject.  The top right target with 75 grains of Goex 2f had a torn patch flier at top, and different seating techniques, but look how close three are.  This load is too hard to seat for fouling but now I know.  I shot 35 grains of Goex 3F in my .45 Green River Leman I made in their shop, and won enought in contests to pay for the parts.  I doubled that to 70 grains for 100 yard targets.  My .50's, I'd have to look.  My friend George Jackson won the Utah state flintlock championship two years using 90 grains of Goex 2F.  I usually use 80 grains of Goex 3F in my .54's.

Lyman's second edition book doesn't have .40 caliber, but they show 70 grains max of Goex 2F and 3F for .32 and .36 calibers.  For .45, their max (as for almost all other calibers and bullets) is 120 grains of Goex 2F and Goex 3F.  2024 and 2125 fps.  They gave 19,300 and 18,700 psi pressure (yes, the 3F was less).  If you think that is hot, they show a lot of conical loads in .45 to 28 and 29,000, one up to 31,500 psi.

Don, I'd call them groups with fliers.  Now, shooting a ball and its seating jag through my second target made a flier.  Otherwise, there are six shots in 1 3/4".  Not a good group, but there it is.  Most of these are six or seven shot groups, usually about 1 1/2" for five.  Each target is a different patch thickness or 3F or 2F or a different rifle.  Each target also has two or three shots cutting, or pairs within a half inch.  The trick is to shoot one fat hole, but I don't usually do that.

If you can sit at a bench and test a series like this and have all bragging groups with no alibis, lets see them.  Years ago don't count, lets see it today.  (I just had to say that, the devil made me do it!)

The Vincent rifle with a newly cleaned bore shot the .400 ball with .020 OxYoke patch and 40 GRAINS of 3f inito a pattern, 4.25".  Continuing immediately without wiping or cleaning, changing only to .010 OxYoke patch, the next group  was 1.00 inch and the velocity 222 fps higher.  (don't remember why only three shots, I think I ran out of balls).  Did the higher velocity make better accuracy?  I don't know.  Did the .020 patch make lower velocity (yes, it seems to, but not that much), and which caused the bad accuracy,  the .020 patch or lower velocity?  And did you know this kind of stuff could happen before I tested it?

My patterns may be because I cannot precvisely and consistently aim with these open sights, or even the Oldham peep.  I never call a shot as badly held (well, almost never), but maybe the patterns are my seeing the sights on the target as much as the load.  But I don't think so.  Maybe I should fit a scope for a testing series and eliminate that one "X" factor.

I do appreciate all the comments, maybe we'll have some fun here and even learn from each other.  Pitch in.

[Daryl]

I appreciate Herb's honesty in posting the groups as they happened. I've shot enough to know whenever I am testing,  - - it happens and you want to pitch that group and start over - I've seen that varmint more thena  few times.  There are groups shown that show promise and they have flyers, yes,  - - it happens.  The grouping that shows promise, those with 3 to 4 tightly clustered holes, need re-testing.  Once there are 4 or 5 targets shot with the same load, there is some meaning to the results - little from a single target.  Perhaps I'll get out this week - maybe today, for some testing of my own. yesterday was fun at the range, but we didn't have time for rifle shooting - testing BP loads in our wheelguns and some cool grouse loads in Taylor's Guide Gun.

 

[Mike R]

groups vs patterns...I was once a competition small bore shooter [college team].  I had 18 yr old eyes when I joined that team 46 yrs ago! My eyes were at least 20/15 then.  If you couldn't shoot dead center every time you couldn't compete very well.  I got used to one hole groups. Now I cannot see the open sights on my longrifles.  A couple of weeks ago I went out one hot humid morning to test a new powder in my .54 with a 44" Rice barrel.  The light was bad, my eyes were blurry, my glasses kept fogging up--in short I was guessing about where my sights were.  Two shots actually missed the 8x11 paper at 50 yds.  I did get a 5 shot 2" group with a couple of other flyers that did hit the paper.  But I gave it up as a bad day to shoot--when I got home I investigated my rear sight with a lens and found out that the darn thing had hardly any notch in it!  No wonder, given the conditions, I shot badly.  I could not see the front sight because of the poor notch and because of my old eyes and because of the humidity....lots of excuses, but I fixed the notch and JUST WAIT UNTIL NEXT TIME!  Most of us search for the one-hole group, and I am usually happy with 1" or so at 50yds [open sights; or 1" at 100 yds with a scoped rifle].  I own two .22s that will group 0.5" at 50 yds.  I was spoiled when the first MLer I bought could do 1" at 100 yds with a tang peep sight[.36 Numerich barrel] and the first one I made shot under 1" at 50 yds with primitive open sights[.45 Green River barrel].  Now my groups are closer to patterns because of my eyes more than anything else...I am pleased with 2" groups these days....

P.S. I forgot to mention the mosquitos were killing me too...

[Daryl]

Mike - is it any wonder are the eyes fail us many shooters getting a mite long in the tooth, go to smoothbores where a long shot is 50 yards, yet we can still hold 1" at 25?

[Herb]

Nice post, Mike.  I am getting ready to test Goex 3f against 2F in my .54 Green River Hawken I built, 80 to 120 grains, because Lymans's second edition shows velocities and pressures different from what one expects.  But I want to test for the accuracy as well, so today I began fitting a 4X scope to my Green River, to be clamped onto a wooden base with  drier duct clamps or some such. 

I'd like someone to test the .40 caliber with loads from 20 to 40 grains of Goex 3F, one ball size and one patch thickness.  I'd really like to have some very mild loads for the blanket shoots.  I have shot 50 grains of Goex 3F in my .54 and .58 Hawkens in these shoots.  I am not a good offhand shot with a flintlock.

[Leatherbelly]

Herb,
 The original owner of my Tenn. Mtn. rifle shot 40grs.of 3f Goex in it. When I bought it last October,I didn't have 3f so I substituted 50grs. of 2f Goex. This little 40 loves it.Shoots all day with it and asks for more. I use a .395 RB,a 22 thou denim patch lubed with LHV or spit. The barrel is a Rice with square grooves,48 inch twist and is 38 inches long. She loads real easy and is very accurate.No wiping.The lock is a Late Ketland and is very fast. I will chrony it soon but really don't feel the need to.

[Herb]

Thanks, Leatherbelly.  I like those late Ketland locks.

[northmn]

I only tested 2f in my 54 and 12 gauge but noticed less of a total velocity spread with the 2f.  It may be that the lower pressures have something to do with it.   Lyman used 3f in their testing because they claimed it shot cleaner and was more economical.  Their pressure tests on a 54 had 80 grains of 3f at 8400 LUP and 80 grains of 2f at 6400 LUP.  The 120 grain load of 2f I used gave 8100 LUP in their barrel and the 90 grain is not listed but 3f jumps from 8400 LUP with 3f at 80 grns to 13100 CUP with 100 grns.   Maybe there is a jump in a 40 similar.  Really Daryl's 60-65 2f loads are not all that different in velocity to 45-50 grain 3f loads.  As to grouping vs patterning, I used to do fairly well with tight patches and a variety of loads.Generally the 40 I used shot pretty tight with about 40 grains.  If the sights were on target and I followed through I hit it.  Unfortunately I also used to sight in offhand as I shot offhand and benches can do funny things to offhand sight in.  I am willing to bet that if a 54 could group 4 inches at 100 yards you could get a lot of game with that load, maybe not field mice but most big game.

DP

[don getz]

Herb.....the last time I shot at the Alvin York shoot I shot a "pattern", that's when I quit.  I may have to join Leatherbelly
and start to shoot my smoothbore, at least then I have an excuse.....Don

[Daryl]

We used to think that's why LB shot a smoothie, until he got the .40 flinter - now all bets are off!  He shoots @!*% well with both.  It's getting to be a chore to beat him now. Wish he'd go back to the smoothie.  There are a couple guys at hefley who shoot nothing but smoothbores. They are goooooood! I saw the scores on a number of the events where the smoothbore shooters 1st and second place were higher than the rifle shooters.  Now, if we can only get the Hunter men to shoot smoothbores, us mere mortals would have a better chance with the rifle events. It was nice to see this forum's  Neil Hunter winning some events where-as Mark - his son only came in second. Only? They are darn difficult to get off-target.  mark shoots a flinter almost as well as his capgun, so a change in ignition for him isn't the only answer.  maybe a new perscription for my glasses? Maybe some more practise? maybe both?

[northmn]

I read a lot of us with the eyesight changes are having troubles.  Many talk about smoothbores where I assume you aim with the front sight only.  Being of the experimental nature Daryl should be able to solve the no see rear sights. I think he was on the right track when he showed us the British Express sight.  Ever wonder what would happen it we really opened up those rear sights.  Slit them deeper and waaay wider.  Or even developed more groan  peep sights.  Maybe painted or inlayed or soldered on silver triangles into the bases to line up the front with the rear.  I was considering making a sort of English styled hunting rifle for myself with a peepsight design kind of like a shotgun I am finishing now which is just for me and deer hunting.  Something that "could have been made" not a re-creation.  I take my hat off to Don for his "barn guns" as that sort of thing.

[Daryl]

I did some chrono and ccuracy testing today.  I found something VERY interesting regarding the powder. both the 3F and 2F that we bought at Hefley are VERY much slower that the previous lots of powder I've used.  there was a drastic drop in velocity even well below Herb's tests.
: I haven't complied my data yet, so it may be a while.  I did test going to a thinner patch from what I normally use - a full .007" thinner and received a drop in velocity of almsot 100fps average.  This is as I guessed would happen. I didn't have anything thinner than .013", so that's what I used after the .020".  As I was using a .400" ball, I assume the .013' patch sealed fairly well as the bore didn't foul up, but I was unable to find any amongst the 'herd' of patches out there.  I should have been picking them up each 5 or 10 shots, but didn't.  The test with the thin patch was an afterthought.  I'm guessing, but I think I shot off about 130 rounds in 5 1/2 hours - No wiping needed.

[Daryl]

  Here are some of the velocities I recorded with the new slow powder in 3F and 2F .40 cal. 42" Goodioen barrel, .398" bore, .420" groove diameter - 1st 5 shots each 10 shot string shown:
: 50gr. 2F spit patch .021" denim .395" ball
1/. 1,509
2/. 1,500
3/. 1,514
4/. 1,513
5/. 1,505 - 1,508 Av. ES - 14 - ES over 10 shots - 19

: 60gr. 2F same combination as above
1/. 1,687
2/. 1,670
3/. 1,662
4/. 1,678
5/. 1,668 - 1,673 Av. ES - 25 - ES over 10 shots - 32

:75gr. 2F same combination
1/. 1,890
2/. 1,885
3/. 1,912
4/. 1,886
5/. 1,915 - 1,897 Av. ES - 30 - ES over 10 shots 39
 
40gr. 3F - .400" ball .020" denim LHV
1/. 1,389
2/. 1,402
3/. 1,374
4/. 1,441
5/. 1,438 - 1,408 Av. ES - 67 - ES over 10 shots - 81

50gr. 3F - same combination and lube
1/. 1,683
2/. 1,653
3/. 1,668
4/. 1,704
5/. 1,683 -  1,678 Av.  ES - 51 - ES over 10 shots - 67

60gr. 3F -  same combination and lube

1., 1,821
2/. 1,830
3/. 1,815
4/. 1,834
5/. 1,830 - 1,826 Av.  ES - 15 - ES over 10 shots - 22

65gr. 3F .400" ball with .013" denim patch - LHV
1/. 1,711
2/. 1,691
3/. 1,672
4/. 1,651
5/. 1,722 - 1,689 Av. ES - 71 -  ES over 10 shots 96 - Accuracy poor - no patches found although loading was little different than with heavy patch.

: There was no cleaning nor wiping of any type during any of the shooting nor between powder changes.  At no time did the loading effort seem to change nor did it get difficult at any time.  Loading each time felt identical to the first shot loaded, except the .395" ball and .021" patch was, of course, easier to start and slightly easier to push down the tube.  I shot the 3F loads first in the .40, then played with the .50 Canoe Gun w/21" barrel for a while, then the 2F loads in the .40.  No patches found, showed any holes nor burning.

 I was very much disappointed in the velocities recorded.  Previous velocity testing was duplicated on at least 2 previous occasions with the 'other' powder - obviously a different lot than this 'newer' slower powder.

 With 75gr. of 2F, this testing's velocties are 263 fps lower.  The 60gr. 2F charge today shows speeds roughly 177fps low of previously recorded velocities.  I was pleased that my duplicate run of 10 shots using 60gr. 2F showed it has promise as being an accuracy load.  I am not satisfied with any of the 3F loads tested.

[northmn]

Again you had results similar to what I have seen in that 2f had a smaller extreme spread than 3f (except for the 60 grain 3f load) .  The 2f extreme spreads are about 1/2 that of 3f.   Compared to modern smokeless loads most of them are really quite acceptable.  I am going to try 2f in my 40 just for kicks.  I decided to stay with my 2f load in my 54 for the same reason.  Were you less experienced I would ask about any changes in the gun such as vent enlargement.  However I did not get a real large difference in my tests from .0625 to .070, I would think the burn out would have to be very severe for those differences.  Try "socking" the powder like one individual suggested to get rid of the fines.  About the time we think we have it licked they change things on us.

DP

[Daryl]

Both the new 3F and 2F seem to be very nice looking powders, just slow on the speeds.  I do recall the other stuff I had, at least the 3F powder that gave high speeds, was considerably dustier.  The 2F seemed about the same, but was fast as well - perhaps less shiny, though.
 
 Right now, I don't have a really good load with 3F- except for perhaps 50gr. 3F which may shoot and of course, the 60gr. 2F that wants to put the first 4 to 6 into a small hole.  They are both close to the same POI at 50 yards, just a tich above the sights.  They'll be about spot-on at 25 and perhaps only an inch low at 75. Unfortunately, I ruin most 10 shot groups due to heat waves. What starts to be a lovely group, transends into a pattern out to 2" or so.  both the 50gr. 3F and 60gr. of 2F wanted to shoot a single hole for the first bunch of shots. Should have quit after 5.

 As far as modern stuff with full powdered hunting loads, anything closer that 50fps is very good. Inside 25 has match potential - I'm talking 300 meter match. This is, of course, if those low ES loads shoot well - doesn't always happen that way, either.