Shot cup

[Dennis Daigger]

Tightening shot patterns has been a continuing topic here and I thought I'd show how I got some success for my early 16 gauge German percussion gun several years ago when preparing for a turkey hunt.

I made a mandrel that would serve as a form for two wraps of high quality bond paper that I had been using for paper jacketing lead bullets. The paper is .0035" thick, is 2x4" and giving me a cup that has .007" sidewalls. The mandrel has a groove near the top that indexes the paper for the wrap and after wrapping the bottom is crimped tightly. An overshot card is first inserted in the barrel and the mandrel with the cup still in place is inserted into the barrel and seated with the top of the mandrel acting as a depth stop. The mandrel is removed leaving the top of the cup below the level of muzzle. The cup holds a maximum of 1 1/4 oz shot. Another overshot card is then placed on the shot and the shot charge is then seated on the the powder nitro card.




These are some of the cups I recovered and it can be seen that barrel abrasion is occurring in the lower half of the cup where the shot is pushed through the cup and most likely all of these shot have some level of deformation that can introduce flyers. The upper half looks pretty good. The upper photo is the inside of the cup and the second is the outside.



Not sure how a turkey at 25 yds would fair with this pattern but it certainly would be effective on upland birds. This is 1 1/4 oz shot and 75 gr of FFg. The small disc on the patterning plate is the size of a clay pigeon and there are 17 pellets on it.


I reduced the diameter of the mandrel a bit to accommodate a heavier "resume" (at my age I don't need resume paper anymore ) 100% cotton bond paper that is .007" thick for a .014" cup in anticipation of a turkey hunt in Montana this spring.
Dennis

[Daryl]

Good information, Dennis.  The shot cups do work.
Lower shot perforation of the shut-cup is normal. That is where the acceleration of the shot charge puts the most strain on the shot,
due to the weight of the shot above resisting that acceleration.
That looks like good head and neck concentration of shot hits for turkey for sure at that range to me.

[acorn20]

Today's shotshells employ a plastic wad to absorb the energy of the powder charge.  Would a homasote wad help reduce the deformation of the paper cup next to the charge?  I had a friend that placed a tight ball of tow above the overpowder card to serve as a wad.  I couldn't believe the number of pellets he'd get in a turkey head target at 25 yards.

[Daryl]

Several "cheats" were used in the pre-choke days of "field" trials in England in the early to mid 1800's.  These 'cheats" were to increase pattern concentration when all the guns were
of cylinder bore.
We today, are interested in these "cheats" of old as this is exactly what we want to do- to increase pattern density.  One "cheat" was to use a fiber wad on top of the over-powder
 wad. That 1/2" fiber wad would have a hollowed out centre (3/8" or larger) which would hold  a certain amount of shot, releasing it some time after leaving the muzzle and increasing the centre density of the pattern. I should note, that the contestants in these "trials" were restricted in the shot charge weight, graduated to bore size, thus if being able to load "more" shot than the rules allowed, increased their chances of winning.
A plastic shot cup can/will increase your pattern density, however, one of the steel wad cups will increase pattern density even more, as they are much stiffer in construction and thus flair
much less rapidly or as much.
The steel shot wads that I have, have quite a cup to the bottom of the wad. These are a similar shape to the Swedish "Cup Wad" that was in use in the late 1800's to help concentrate
more shot in the centre of the pattern.
I guess I'll have to get some 20 bore steel shot wads to check out if they'll fit in my or Taylor's 20 bore flint guns. As mine is choked, I really don't need any help with patterns, but experimentation is always fun.
Just be sure to use a hard card between the plastic and the powder.  The BP powder charge will melt the plastic and that will coat the bore - or fouling, or both - nasty to remove. Been there, done that.
The suggestions of before using post-it notes and making cups out of those.  Dennis's method is even better.

Not that none of his paper shot protectors caught fire! This shows a good seal beneath them.

[Not English]

This is an interesting thread. (....edited to meet ALR rules....) I've got 2 new flint smoothbores that I have yet to work up shot loads for. I suspect that I'll probably try Daryl's lead for hunting loads.

[Daryl]

Another thing to try, is using only thin overshot wads on the powder, 2 of them, along with a sleeved shot charge, like Dennis makes above, with a single thin overshot card.
Track calls them "B" wads and they come in a bag of 1,000, seems to me.
The traditional wad column is an 1/8" hard card on the powder, then a 1/2" cushion wad of fiber or commercially made using donnaconna, then another 1/8" hard card, then shot, then
thin card over shot. Many guys, myself included, eliminate the second hard card or thin "B" wad over the cushion wad.
In cylinder bored guns, this traditional wad column sometimes (but not in some guns) blows through the shot and makes do-nut shaped patterns.
Some guys use nothing but thin "B" wads - 2 on the powder, then shot then another thin "B" wad over the shot. I won a trap shoot at rendezvous using this system in an original
11 bore English smoothbore. I used 3 drams of 2F powder and 1 1/4oz. shot.
There is another wad system of loading, using thin cards on the powder, then shot, then a lubed 1/2" cushion wad on top of the powder. Sounds strange, but it works in many guns.
Lubed wads are heavy and when placed under the shot, tend to blow the pattern. When placed over the shot, this doesn't seem to happen, yet they still lube the bore and keep the
fouling soft.

[83nubnEC]

This past year I built a TVM 20 gauge smoothbore
fowler and use the following for my turkey loads. I use a 1/2" dowel with a couple of electrician tape wraps to bring it to 9/16", then wrap two wraps of grocery bag paper around the dowel and seal the bottom with super glue. I put an 1/8" cork wad over the powder followed with a 1/3 of a cushion wad lubricated with moosemilk next. After the 1 1/8 oz load of #5 nickel plated shot I put a wad cut from a Styrofoam egg carton. This gives me 30-40 pellets in the head/neck area at 20 yds. Don't know how to import image with post!

[83nubnEC]

will try to upload a pic of turkey head target from my TVM 20 gauge fowler.
 
 

[Eric Krewson]

I tried a variety of shot cups in my 20ga, when they worked they were devastating, like a super full choke, when they didn't work they slugged and didn't open up which was about 50% of the time.

[Daryl]

Not good percentages, Eric.  Back in the day, the encapsulated shot charges were marked for range by colouring the paper enclosing them. The longest range variety were also listed as being suitable for wolves and deer to 50yards, because at those ranges, they acted like slugs and actually didn't start opening up until approximately 80 yards from the gunner, but killed ducks well to over 100yards. I'd guess you'd have to get the elevation correct.
For turkey, you'd want the shot to start spreading almost immediately, but not too fast. Easiest way is with a choke of some sort, of course, but without a choke, then load development
would be of prime importance.
There are different cups, designed for different purposes. Some are softer than others, some have split petals, others not.

[Eric Krewson]

I played with shot cups for several years, every configuration, I finally made a jug choked fowler that loves a Skychief load, problem solved. I was shooting the shot cups in an old Gustomsky trade gun.

[Daryl]

I had one of those in 12 bore. I used .715" patched balls. Never shot pellets in it, and at 5 1/2 to 6 pounds, it was quite brutal.