Question on Southern Butt Plates

[mgbruch]

This link,

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2302.0

takes you to a Soddy-Daisey rifle in the museum section of this forum, on which the butt plate is done in two pieces.  However this butt plate looks as if it was put on in two pieces, then riveted at the top of the heel.  It looks as if it were never forge brazed, or soldered together.  I have also seen photos of other Southern guns that appear to have similarly made, and mounted, butt plates.

Can anyone tell me about the construction and mounting of butt plates such as this one.  Were they mounted in two pieces? Or has time and use caused them to separate?

Thanks. 

[rsells]

mgbruch,
I can't speak on the specific butt plate you are looking at, but I have three original rifles that I copy characteristics from when building mountain rifles.  All three of the original rifles I own have the two pieces of the butt built with a brad at the heal and also brazed along the parting lines as well.  I brad the two pieces together and braze them together from the inside as well when fabricating my butt plates.  The material I use to braze from the inside flows through the mating surfaces and flows to the outside of the butt plate.  It leaves a thin brazed line visible from the outside when the butt plate is cleaned up prior to browning.  Sometimes a bit tedious to do, but it makes a strong period correct part when finished.  I made a fixture to use during the process that helps hold the parts in the proper position during the process that has helped me a lot.
                                                                                    Roger Sells

[heinz]

I concur with Roger Sells.  You get so you like the look of that shiny seam in the butt plate

[mgbruch]

Thank you.  I'm currently brazing as well, with silver braze.  In the past I have also forge-brazed using copper.  I'm not a Smithy, but I did make a forge on the ground using the clay on my property; and bought some coal.  THAT was a learning curve!

I'm using soft iron nails for the rivet.  Where do you get your brads?, and what material and size are they?

Here is a photo of the plate that will go on the gun I'm laying out now.

[Hungry Horse]

 The one and only antique SMR buttplate I own is actually one piece. The two pieces are held together by a narrow strip of iron. The sides as shaped to match the contour then  forge brazed together. Top is curved as is the actual buttplate.


Hungry Horse

[dstock]

I have seen butt plates made like the Soddy but just from looking at them it would be troublesome for me to fit properly.
I make mine pretty much the same way Roger Sells described. I also like the looks of the brass seam.

[heinz]

Mgbruch:  I use soft nails.  I use a 3/8 steel plate drilled to 3/32 and countersunk to produce a 5/32 head. You can adjust those dimensions to fit your nails.  I heat the nail up with a torch while the nail is clamped in a vise, drop the plate over it and form a rivet head in the countersink..  You can make the process easier by using a finishing nail and dropping it through the plate, the head will bind on the plate. 

If you make a paper template of the shaped tang extension, cut to a 45 degree angle on the butt side, you can transfer that to the flat butt metal.  That will roll up to a good fit. The angle of the cut is not critical.  You need to file the flanges to get a close fit in the solder joint. It is easy to do the 45 before you bend and it will be close. 

[mgbruch]

Thank you all for your help.

[Bob Roller]

Tom Dawson who was well known for his Hawken copies told me he used black iron pipe and forged them from that material.
He made one for the Hawken facsimile I made in 1967 and it was not flimsy like the antique original I had Leonard Meadows
use on the SMR he made for me in 1965.Both butt plate and trigger guard were from a badly damaged antique rifle I got from
Bill Large.

[oldtravler61]

  Just remember when you make the plate. Don't make it flat !
 Oldtravler

[heinz]

In the interest of stopping myths.  Not all iron mounted rifle are curved like Soddy Daisy rifles .  Many have only a slight curvature, right to left across the stock.  With Southern iron mounted rifles,  you need to realize they covered a wide geographic area, a long time period, and several distinct schools plus a lot of melded schools.  You need to think in terms of "common". "uncommon" and "never".  And probably never say never.




requesting emojis

[Bob Roller]

In the interest of stopping myths.  Not all iron mounted rifle are curved like Soddy Daisy rifles .  Many have only a slight curvature, right to left across the stock.  With Southern iron mounted rifles,  you need to realize they covered a wide geographic area, a long time period, and several distinct schools plus a lot of melded schools.  You need to think in terms of "common". "uncommon" and "never".  And probably never say never.




requesting emojis

The top rifle has very elegant lines and the curved butt plate is an attention getter.For shooting I prefer]the bottom gun.
Recoil in these rifles is barely noticed usually and back in the "day"I used my SMR with the deeply curved butt plate AND the
Whitworth with a flat but plate plus a pull on recoil pad to get the stock length right.I need a 14" pull in warm weather with
light weight shirts and almost no shooting in cold weather like right NOW.
Bob Roller

[Dennis Glazener]

mgbruch,
I can't speak on the specific butt plate you are looking at, but I have three original rifles that I copy characteristics from when building mountain rifles.  All three of the original rifles I own have the two pieces of the butt built with a brad at the heal and also brazed along the parting lines as well.  I brad the two pieces together and braze them together from the inside as well when fabricating my butt plates.  The material I use to braze from the inside flows through the mating surfaces and flows to the outside of the butt plate.  It leaves a thin brazed line visible from the outside when the butt plate is cleaned up prior to browning.  Sometimes a bit tedious to do, but it makes a strong period correct part when finished.  I made a fixture to use during the process that helps hold the parts in the proper position during the process that has helped me a lot.
                                                                                    Roger Sells

That is the way several of my original southern made rifle buttplates were done. When I make a forged butt plate I use this same process. I either use 2 propane torches held under the joint or over my coal forge, then put flux and brass filing on the joint when hot enough to braze. Obviously needs to have a tight fitting joint.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

Heinz is correct. Here is an Iron mounted Early VA rifle that has a fairly flat butt plate and it was made my riveting the two pieces together then brazing the joint from the inside.

Dennis

In the interest of stopping myths.  Not all iron mounted rifle are curved like Soddy Daisy rifles .  Many have only a slight curvature, right to left across the stock.  With Southern iron mounted rifles,  you need to realize they covered a wide geographic area, a long time period, and several distinct schools plus a lot of melded schools.  You need to think in terms of "common". "uncommon" and "never".  And probably never say never.


requesting emojis

Heinz is correct. Here is an Iron mounted Early VA rifle that has a fairly flat butt plate and it was made my riveting the two pieces together then brazing the joint from the inside.

Dennis

[B.Barker]

There are some Virginia rifles that have two piece butt plates that were never brazed together. Wallace Guslar had an article in Muzzle Blast magazine about them. Don't remember the year but was probably early 2000's. I think some Soddy rifles were made this way too but not sure because I've not seen any in hand.

[okieboy]

 I recently obtained an antique forged iron butt plate and it has one rivet at the top (which is difficult to see) and is brazed.
 Question. were there none of these made that used two rivets, or even three? Or would that just have been extra work for very little assembly gain?

[heinz]

Okieboy.   The advantage I find in the single rivet is the assembly can pivot a little bit while you are doing the final hammer tapping of the joint area before the actual braze.  It sort of swivels then locks in place.     

[okieboy]

 Thank you heinz. My forge is outside, under Minnesota snow and ice, but I thought that I might try to duplicate the old butt plate that I got....if it ever gets warm again.

[Dave B]

This is a edge on brazed buttplate riveted at the heel.