Author Topic: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?  (Read 2576 times)

Offline jsb30

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Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« on: March 12, 2022, 06:06:30 PM »
I am gathering parts to build an English Gentleman's Rifle in Flintlock. Which lock would be recommended? .62 cal D weight barrel coming, 31 inch. I am considering a Kibler Round Face English.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2022, 06:09:24 PM »
Depends on the time period. Round locks are early, flat locks are late.
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Offline wattlebuster

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2022, 06:15:42 PM »
Nothing wrong with a Kibler. I held an cycled one at the Bama show an they seem to be excellent quality. Chambers round faced english or virginia or early ketland would be my choice though for the simple reason they are proven performers with a warranty that cant be beat. I like to stick with what works and made by a company that has been around for years. I think it just comes down to personal choice
Nothing beats the feel of a handmade southern iron mounted flintlock on a cold frosty morning

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2022, 06:16:16 PM »
Dont discount the Chambers round face English lock that he uses on his English Gentlemans rifle kit.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2022, 06:20:42 PM »
You are limited to certain time periods based on what is actually available.  That said, I would go with a Kibler round face or one of the Chambers options based on which time period you want the rifle to represent.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2022, 06:56:10 PM »
Chambers or Kibler Late Ketland. Best looking IMHO + great performance.
Bob Roller

Online smart dog

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2022, 07:09:20 PM »
Hi jsb30,
Listen to Mike and James if you care about historical consistency.  I discuss mid-18th century English locks in some detail here:
  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48844.0

Sporting rifles in England were generally made for wealthy people with land that supported big game.  There was no big game hunting culture in the general population like we have in the US.  Consequently, "poor boy" hunting rifles were not made very often in Britain.  Many officers serving in America brought rifles with them because it was often the first or only time they would have the opportunity to hunt large mammals. Lock styles for rifles followed the fashions of the wealthy elites.  What that implies is that (in general, there are always rare exceptions) from the beginning of the 18th century until about 1755-1760, first class locks were usually round faced.  After 1760 and before 1780, flat faced locks were the fashion but usually without fancy roller frizzens, and "water proof" pans. Some had sliding safety bolts.  Toward the end of that period rollers in the toe of the frizzens became popular as well as guttered pans and stirruped tumblers.  After 1790, locks became smaller, often had rollers in the frizzen spring or in the toe of the frizzen, had stirruped tumblers, often had sliding safety bolts, and pans separated from the fence began to appear. 

For the early period, Chambers and Kiblers round faced English locks with bridled pans are your best choices and they are excellent.   For the middle period (essentially around the time of our Revolution), Davis's Twigg lock and L&R's Durs Egg will work.  They both have rollers and stirrups, which place them late in the period, and they both need a lot of work to bring up to a British standard.  I would probably choose the Twigg and work it over but I also might work over Chambers early Ketland lock to turn it from a trade lock to a high end sporting gun lock. For the late flint period, Kibler's late flint and Chambers late Ketland are good choices although neither are modeled after high end locks.  They reproduce the styling of less expensive export locks of the time.  However, they can be modified a little to upgrade their styling.  Davis' late English flintlock will work as well but it is not nearly as well made and needs to be worked over.

dave         
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Offline JHeath

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2022, 08:03:04 PM »
Blackley and Son in the UK produce castings for English flint locks, after various London makers, Manton, Egg etc.

I read somewhere that delivery times can be long. Also that they take careful assembly and tuning. But they are a source for specific London maker locks.

Online EC121

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2022, 08:49:27 PM »
      After getting my first rifle with a Kibler lock, my first impression is that it is a well made, smooth working lock.
      After shooting the rifle, it worked fine but with a long stroke.  Because I like to tinker a bit, I sped it up by substituting a Chambers Early Germanic mainspring and shimming the back of the flint for more of a slicing action.
      (The diameter of the pin on the Chambers mainspring needs to be reduced slightly or the hole in the lockplate needs to be drilled out.  To avoid doing anything permanent, I cut the pin down.)     
       Since the hammer is .125" shorter than the Chambers lock, the flint hits lower on the frizzen.  I spaced the flint out for a higher hit, but it started cutting the frizzen face.  Bevel  down helped to get a higher strike, but it didn't change the angle.  I then shimmed up the back of the bevel down flint  for a better angle.  Now it is faster with better sparks that hit the middle of the pan.  When the weather breaks, I am going to experiment with a longer musket flint.  Snapping it in my hand seems to make more sparks, but I haven't tried it live yet.
   This is my experience.     Your mileage may vary.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2022, 09:58:54 PM by EC121 »
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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2022, 10:31:54 PM »
The Kibler Late Ketland I looked at had a linked mainspring and was very smooth.
Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2022, 10:52:00 PM »
Hi jsb30,
Listen to Mike and James if you care about historical consistency.  I discuss mid-18th century English locks in some detail here:
  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48844.0

Sporting rifles in England were generally made for wealthy people with land that supported big game.  There was no big game hunting culture in the general population like we have in the US.  Consequently, "poor boy" hunting rifles were not made very often in Britain.  Many officers serving in America brought rifles with them because it was often the first or only time they would have the opportunity to hunt large mammals. Lock styles for rifles followed the fashions of the wealthy elites.  What that implies is that (in general, there are always rare exceptions) from the beginning of the 18th century until about 1755-1760, first class locks were usually round faced.  After 1760 and before 1780, flat faced locks were the fashion but usually without fancy roller frizzens, and "water proof" pans. Some had sliding safety bolts.  Toward the end of that period rollers in the toe of the frizzens became popular as well as guttered pans and stirruped tumblers.  After 1790, locks became smaller, often had rollers in the frizzen spring or in the toe of the frizzen, had stirruped tumblers, often had sliding safety bolts, and pans separated from the fence began to appear. 

For the early period, Chambers and Kiblers round faced English locks with bridled pans are your best choices and they are excellent.   For the middle period (essentially around the time of our Revolution), Davis's Twigg lock and L&R's Durs Egg will work.  They both have rollers and stirrups, which place them late in the period, and they both need a lot of work to bring up to a British standard.  I would probably choose the Twigg and work it over but I also might work over Chambers early Ketland lock to turn it from a trade lock to a high end sporting gun lock. For the late flint period, Kibler's late flint and Chambers late Ketland are good choices although neither are modeled after high end locks.  They reproduce the styling of less expensive export locks of the time.  However, they can be modified a little to upgrade their styling.  Davis' late English flintlock will work as well but it is not nearly as well made and needs to be worked over.

dave       

Toward the end of the flint era the very finest of spark ignited locks reached their zenith and finally succumbed to the oncoming percussion system that didn't last nearly as long as the flintlock.Who knows,maybe the current shortage of percussion caps and primers will bring a
good revival of the flintlock.We can always hope and have fun while we're doing it.. :D

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2022, 05:25:47 AM »
I am gathering parts to build an English Gentleman's Rifle in Flintlock. Which lock would be recommended? .62 cal D weight barrel coming, 31 inch. I am considering a Kibler Round Face English.
What era rifle?  The English locks were pretty advanced by 1780. 
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Offline jsb30

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2022, 05:33:54 AM »
I am looking at 1740-1750 time period. Something along the style of the Chambers Kit. Is there a book that goes into design and different time frames of the locks?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2022, 06:19:15 AM »
I am looking at 1740-1750 time period. Something along the style of the Chambers Kit. Is there a book that goes into design and different time frames of the locks?
If you can find one “English Guns and Rifles” by George comes to mind. Not many photos though. I would buy a Kibler round faced.
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2022, 06:25:04 AM »
Kibler or Chambers round face English or maybe the one pictured created by Mike Rowe for Caywood and which is spot on after a nice mid century lock on a Barbar gun from Keith Neal's collection. 



 


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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2022, 02:50:20 PM »
Hi James,
I agree with you.  I recently worked on a gun that had that same Caywood lock and it was clear the lock maker knew his business.  I wonder if Caywood locks are still as nice after Rowe stopped working for them.

dave
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Offline jsb30

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2022, 03:54:15 PM »
I really appreciate all the input.

Offline Robby

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2022, 04:00:56 PM »
I used a left hand Caywood on my first Muzzleloader rifle. All these years later it still performs flawlessly and sparks like an arc welder!


Ah me, where has the time gone.
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Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2022, 07:36:47 PM »
Dave "Smart Dog" - I am building up a nice Durs Egg lock, and the seller of the kit let me borrow his completed lock to copy and measure from. The parts I have are not marked as to where the various holes are drilled, so I have been (carefully) measuring the completed lock and transfer the locations to the new lock plate.
But - the completed lock has a fly in the tumbler, and the tumbler I have does not have the cut out.  I recently got a small mill, and thus have the capability for cutting the tumbler space.
Since I will not be using a double set trigger, is the fly really necessary?  Would hate to go to the trouble of getting a 1/16" cutter, then carefully (!) cutting out the fly slot (and buying a fly - not about to try making one, as my milling skills are about non-existent!).
The lock casting are very nice, complete with the engraving.
Many thanks for the response.
Craig Wilcox
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Online smart dog

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2022, 06:46:42 PM »
Hi Craig,
A Durs Egg kit?  Is that one of the Clark kits?   Craig, no task to make a lock requires a milling machine, not one.  The British makers of the finest flintlocks ever made in the early 19th century did not have milling machines but they had jigs and some special tools that helped. The fly detent does have value even if you are not using set triggers.  It allows you to set up a very light trigger pull without risk that the sear will re-engage the half cock notch when the lock is fired. In my experience making all kinds of locks, when you get trigger pull down to 2lbs or less, you may run into trouble with a lock that does not have a fly. Making and installing a fly is not that hard nor does it require the precision of a milling machine, although that would certainly make the task easier.  I make fly detents using spring steel rod the diameter of the hole I will drill in the tumbler.  I cut a piece twice as long as the hole is deep, heat it red, and bend it over in a right angle halfway.  Then I put it in a vise and hammer the bent section wider and flat.  Then I file it to the rough shape of the fly.  I drill the annealed tumbler for the fly, and then cut the edges of the "pie shaped" recess with a square graver.  I remove material between those lines with a small flat graver.  Currently, I use a high speed rotary tool with a tiny grinding tip but the graver worked fine in the past.  Next I use a small stippling punch to stipple the recess like I was creating a dark recessed background in an engraving. Using a small pointed half-round needle file, I file the bottom of the notch until the stippling is gone.  At that point I usually have a recess for the fly that is sufficiently deep and flat to work well. Then I install the fly, check its length and file the end accordingly.

dave           
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Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Which lock for English Gentleman's Rifle?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2022, 07:26:20 PM »
Thanks, Dave!  Yes, it says Clark on it.  Currently have it mounted on a block of wood for drilling and cutting the threads.

The slot for the fly doesn't sound too difficult.  I knew the springs had to be heat treated, and the sear.  Had forgotten that the tumbler has to be hardened as well.  And the darn Frizzen!  Might get some help on those.

The mill does help me locate the holes more accurately, as I have large problems with my hands.  Need the steadiness and movement ability.  With the legs also, so the mill is suitably mounted low enough to sit at.

And, of course, sitting enables one of my cats to leap onto the back of my chair, startling me!  The biggest one just jumps on the desk, not the workbenches.
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.